(Re)introducing after neutering?

[Mamich]

Hello!
I hope everyone is having a good weekend!
I’m seeking advice on bonding.

I feel I need to give some backstory (which will be longer than the main part of this post, sorry!)

I currently have 4 guinea pigs.
3 sows: Rosie (8 months, mum), Sophie and Kuro (3.5 months.)

And in a separate cage, my boar (who I may or may not baby): George (11 months, dad)

The C&C cages are connected but they can’t get into the others cage (if that makes sense?) They can see each other. Rosie appears desperate to go towards him, Kuro is curious, Sophie is scared and George occasionally purrs at them when he feels like it. Prior to surgery he would be trying to climb, would be biting the bars and whining.

Kuro and Sophie are the result of the pet shop saying Rosie was a boy. George certainly enjoyed himself.

The bonding between Rosie and George went fairly smoothly. Rosie seems to be absolutely enamored by him and so far has appeared a bit possessive of him. If George is nearby, she will push her daughters away and start licking George’s ears through the bars.

The dynamic in the sows’ cage:
Rosie is currently the dominant one. Sophie occasionally tests the waters but immediately gets shut down, let’s put squeals of submission and then takes it out on her sister by chasing her around the cage. Kuro occasionally tests the water but immediately backs down. There has been no mounting between the three. Teeth chattering has occurred once when Rosie was in heat.
Sophie has attempted to mount Rosie in heat but clumsily failed and hasn’t attempted since.

Based on observation, Sophie does seem to want to be the alpha of the cage. She is also humongous and weighs 768g at 3.5 months.
(Kuro 667g, Rosie 734g and George, who was 850 before surgery dropped to 664 and is up to 757 now.)

Here’s the actual question:

It will be 6 weeks in a few days since George has gotten neutered (the recovery has been very bad and he has had bad luck.) With the wonderful advice of everyone on this forum he is starting to eat, but not enough to stop syringe feeding.

I have held George up to Rosie, who immediately started grooming him while I held him. So I am not concerned about those two. I am worried about Sophie in particular.

My questions are:
1) Do you think I should wait until he has fully recovered? (Stop syringe feeding)

2) Do you think it will help seeing the alpha in the cage be so submissive to him?

3) Is it safe to introduce him to all of them at once in a neutral territory or should I try one by one?

Thank you very much!

 

[Mamich]

Obligatory Piggie tax, here is Sophie and George

On a side note: I recently found out Rosie was in fact not a Teddy but a Rex. My mind has been blown!

 

[Siikibam]

I think the important ones are the top pig, which is mum in this case. I would try bonding them all together rather than one at a time. They all have to accept him for the bond to work. If I’m right, boars are kind of ‘outside’ of the sow hierarchy but have their place in the herd, if that makes sense.

How long do you think you’ll be syringe feeding him for?

 

[Mamich]

I think the important ones are the top pig, which is mum in this case. I would try bonding them all together rather than one at a time. They all have to accept him for the bond to work. If I’m right, boars are kind of ‘outside’ of the sow hierarchy but have their place in the herd, if that makes sense.

How long do you think you’ll be syringe feeding him for?

At the moment it’s mum, but it seems like Sophie is slowly trying to change that.
Mum completely accepts him.

That makes sense!

I’m unsure how much longer to be honest. I’m hoping for less than a month but he still needs to be syringe fed 1-2 times a day.
The vet in my country basically said “good luck!” So I’ve been on my own with caring for him.

 

[Wiebke]

Hello!
I hope everyone is having a good weekend!
I’m seeking advice on bonding.

I feel I need to give some backstory (which will be longer than the main part of this post, sorry!)

I currently have 4 guinea pigs.
3 sows: Rosie (8 months, mum), Sophie and Kuro (3.5 months.)

And in a separate cage, my boar (who I may or may not baby): George (11 months, dad)

The C&C cages are connected but they can’t get into the others cage (if that makes sense?) They can see each other. Rosie appears desperate to go towards him, Kuro is curious, Sophie is scared and George occasionally purrs at them when he feels like it. Prior to surgery he would be trying to climb, would be biting the bars and whining.

Kuro and Sophie are the result of the pet shop saying Rosie was a boy. George certainly enjoyed himself.

The bonding between Rosie and George went fairly smoothly. Rosie seems to be absolutely enamored by him and so far has appeared a bit possessive of him. If George is nearby, she will push her daughters away and start licking George’s ears through the bars.

The dynamic in the sows’ cage:
Rosie is currently the dominant one. Sophie occasionally tests the waters but immediately gets shut down, let’s put squeals of submission and then takes it out on her sister by chasing her around the cage. Kuro occasionally tests the water but immediately backs down. There has been no mounting between the three. Teeth chattering has occurred once when Rosie was in heat.
Sophie has attempted to mount Rosie in heat but clumsily failed and hasn’t attempted since.

Based on observation, Sophie does seem to want to be the alpha of the cage. She is also humongous and weighs 768g at 3.5 months.
(Kuro 667g, Rosie 734g and George, who was 850 before surgery dropped to 664 and is up to 757 now.)

Here’s the actual question:

It will be 6 weeks in a few days since George has gotten neutered (the recovery has been very bad and he has had bad luck.) With the wonderful advice of everyone on this forum he is starting to eat, but not enough to stop syringe feeding.

I have held George up to Rosie, who immediately started grooming him while I held him. So I am not concerned about those two. I am worried about Sophie in particular.

My questions are:
1) Do you think I should wait until he has fully recovered? (Stop syringe feeding)

2) Do you think it will help seeing the alpha in the cage be so submissive to him?

3) Is it safe to introduce him to all of them at once in a neutral territory or should I try one by one?

Thank you very much!

Please conduct a formal intro in neutral space and follow the advice and information in our comprehensive illustrated bonding guide, which includes plenty of pictures and several videos to help you assess the progress at any stage of the complex bonding process.
Here is the link: Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Since your piggies know each other and know where they stand in relation to each other in terms of hierarchy, you have a very good chance of success unless it comes down to a leadership tussle - which doesn't seem to be the case with you. Sows not in season or whose ranking in the group could be affected by the newcomer won't be as happy.
Piggy society is not human society and has different rules. Take the time to read the guide link before intros and have it on tap during if necessary.

All the best.

 

[Mamich]

Please conduct a formal intro in neutral space and follow the advice and information in our comprehensive illustrated bonding guide, which includes plenty of pictures and several videos to help you assess the progress at any stage of the complex bonding process.
Here is the link: Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Since your piggies know each other and know where they stand with each other, you have a good chance of success. Please accept that higher ranked sows and sows not in season will keep their distance. Piggy society is not human society and has different rules. Take the time to read the guide link before intros and have it on tap during if necessary.

Thank you!
I had been reading and watching the videos to mentally prepare myself. I haven’t seen anything as useful as that guide. It’s eased my anxiety quite a bit!

 

[Free Ranger]

I'm so pleased your George is battling through! I bet you get really psyched up and then it all goes so smoothly you'll wonder what you were bothering about ☺

 

[Mamich]

I'm so pleased your George is battling through! I bet you get really psyched up and then it all goes so smoothly you'll wonder what you were bothering about ☺

Yes!
Though this is pretty much constantly me

 

[Mamich]

Update:
Sophie and Kuro ended up bickering instead.
So tensions were high. I took Kuro out and the other three did well.

Kuro kept chattering and putting her head really high and lunging towards George and her sister Sophie.


Unfortunately Kuro is on her own right now, she keeps jabbing her nose at her father through the bars. George doesn’t seem to care.

I’m hoping to reattempt in a few days.

 

[Mamich]

Currently Kuro is on her own, Sophie, Rosie and George live together harmoniously.
Sophie is in heat right now so George is extra happy.

Question:
Kuro (3.5 months) is not a dominant piggy. She was the bottom in the hierarchy when she lived him her mother and sister.

I was reading that it usually works better if it’s a boar coming from a higher position in the hierarchy than the sow.

I reattempted and Sophie and Kuro tolerated each other. Sophie bickered a bit with Rosie.

When I put George into the mix, there was immediate tension between him and Kuro. (Well, more from Kuro than George.)

She immediately lunged at him, no blood was drawn. He did not really respond, basically shoved her away and it happened a few times.

I understand there is no magic spell that can make them get along.

Would it be better if I waited until Kuro was in heat? I heard that can help.

If that helps, would it be best if I separated the cage in half and put Kuro and Rosie together and George and Sophie together?
(With a daily play date with George, Sophie and Rosie?)

At the moment Kuro lunges at him through the bars. He doesn’t care. Instead he humps her sister directly in front of her

Thank you for any advice!

Edit: George has increased his eating since being put in with the girls. Looks like that was the “medicine” he needed.

 

[Mamich]

Additional information: Kuro is a very anxious girl too compared to the other three. Could that be an issue? She used to be the dominant one with her sister which changed after a month. She then became the lowest in the hierarchy and often get chased by her mom and Sophie. Sophie was particularly dominant towards her.

 

[Free Ranger]

Oh my - they are never straightforward! It is great that George has perked up though ☺
I will tag @Wiebke who will be able to advise much better on this.

They say here on the forum that the boar is separate to the sow hierarchy so I would assume that adding George into the mix has not changed that hierarchy just made any disagreements more obvious. Have a think about whether Kuro was actually happy living with mum and sister - was it 'normal' dominance or was she bullied and prevented from eating. Is she an anxious pig generally or was she just in a stressful situation?

My George is nearly 4 and has been anxious in every situation he has ever been in! You might know I have to keep my 4 pigs as a neighbouring two-and-two because he was attacked by one of his new 'wives' (Zara, the dominant one, who was not so keen on the arranged 'marriage'!) George is not a humpy boar at all but he did try and mount Zara's friend Louise (who looked like she was quite keen) but Zara was having none of it. Now he is living with Flora as 'just friends' and they are happy enough. They don't do 'playdates' unfortunately as it disrupts the hierarchy each time. If your 4 can't work together have a think about the two-and-two option - who would work out best with whom. But if your trio is very harmonious you might want to think about Kuro's options so she is not alone. I got Flora almost by chance - a friend was down to her last piggy and was looking for a home for her. But maybe 5 pigs is too much for your space and it sure is a lot of poop to scoop!

 

[Mamich]

Oh my - they are never straightforward! It is great that George has perked up though ☺
I will tag @Wiebke who will be able to advise much better on this.

They say here on the forum that the boar is separate to the sow hierarchy so I would assume that adding George into the mix has not changed that hierarchy just made any disagreements more obvious. Have a think about whether Kuro was actually happy living with mum and sister - was it 'normal' dominance or was she bullied and prevented from eating. Is she an anxious pig generally or was she just in a stressful situation?

My George is nearly 4 and has been anxious in every situation he has ever been in! You might know I have to keep my 4 pigs as a neighbouring two-and-two because he was attacked by one of his new 'wives' (Zara, the dominant one, who was not so keen on the arranged 'marriage'!) George is not a humpy boar at all but he did try and mount Zara's friend Louise (who looked like she was quite keen) but Zara was having none of it. Now he is living with Flora as 'just friends' and they are happy enough. They don't do 'playdates' unfortunately as it disrupts the hierarchy each time. If your 4 can't work together have a think about the two-and-two option - who would work out best with whom. But if your trio is very harmonious you might want to think about Kuro's options so she is not alone. I got Flora almost by chance - a friend was down to her last piggy and was looking for a home for her. But maybe 5 pigs is too much for your space and it sure is a lot of poop to scoop!

Thank you so much for your response, I sincerely appreciate it!
George buddies!

As you pointed out, I do think Kuro had been unhappy about how Sophie was acting towards her. She still gained weight steadily buy would get chased by Sophie after Sophie would attempt to dominate her mum and fail miserably. (Almost like she was trying to take her frustration out on her.)

Reattempting reconciliation today, they seemed to tolerate each other with some chattering but Rosie got in between when they started complaining.

But the issue was between Kuro and George.
As my boyfriend put it, he seemed to take the damage and not react much but he did turn around to warn her and shove her off of him.

He has not done anything to her, so I am unaware of any potential grudge she could be holding towards him. She actually seemed to see him as a threat when he mounted Sophie (who accepted it).

That’s unfortunate about the play dates.

I can’t adopt any more at the moment due to moving from Japan to the Netherlands by the end of this year. My boyfriend has two girls over there so maybe putting Kuro/Rosie and Sophie/George will be better.

 

[Free Ranger]

get chased by Sophie after Sophie would attempt to dominate her mum and fail miserably. (Almost like she was trying to take her frustration out on her.)

I think you have got this right... Sophie is reassuring herself of her position as dominant over Kuro. Poor Kuro has done nothing to trigger the behaviour, it's just when Sophie's challenge fails!
I saw an interesting face-off between my 3 sows who often eat together at the bar area. I always assumed that if they ended up in together (my lovely boy is the oldest after all) then little Flora - smaller and a year younger - would be the put-upon third pig. But she's clever - and she is able to have free-run of the kitchen which has made her confident. I saw her and Louise looking interested in each other then a moment later Zara jumped between them and glanced from one to the other like, "look out! I'm watching you!" But another time all 3 were gazing at each other when Zara suddenly turned and nose-bumped gentle Louise who ran off with a squeak. I thought, "she sees Flora as a challenge now!" And Flora has been eating like a monster since she arrived in January - despite being smaller she now weighs as much as the other two (just shy of 1.2kg) and she feels 'dense' when you pick her up - and she's fast. And I can't 'read' her, if you know what I mean...? George, Zara and Louise I can sort of tell what's going on with them but Flora isn't open about what she's thinking. She plays her cards close to her chest is how we'd say it. She has crazy eyes though so maybe it's that. You get the dark eye and the red eye piggies but Flora has a sort of half-way eye - they are definitely dark but they sort of glow red. She's spooky!

 

[Mamich]

I think you have got this right... Sophie is reassuring herself of her position as dominant over Kuro. Poor Kuro has done nothing to trigger the behaviour, it's just when Sophie's challenge fails!
I saw an interesting face-off between my 3 sows who often eat together at the bar area. I always assumed that if they ended up in together (my lovely boy is the oldest after all) then little Flora - smaller and a year younger - would be the put-upon third pig. But she's clever - and she is able to have free-run of the kitchen which has made her confident. I saw her and Louise looking interested in each other then a moment later Zara jumped between them and glanced from one to the other like, "look out! I'm watching you!" But another time all 3 were gazing at each other when Zara suddenly turned and nose-bumped gentle Louise who ran off with a squeak. I thought, "she sees Flora as a challenge now!" And Flora has been eating like a monster since she arrived in January - despite being smaller she now weighs as much as the other two (just shy of 1.2kg) and she feels 'dense' when you pick her up - and she's fast. And I can't 'read' her, if you know what I mean...? George, Zara and Louise I can sort of tell what's going on with them but Flora isn't open about what she's thinking. She plays her cards close to her chest is how we'd say it. She has crazy eyes though so maybe it's that. You get the dark eye and the red eye piggies but Flora has a sort of half-way eye - they are definitely dark but they sort of glow red. She's spooky!

That makes a lot of sense about reassuring her position. It did seem like that, and it made me very anxious about how Kuro had done nothing to deserve it. The irony was Sophie used to be so scared and Kuro would always come running towards her and groom her and Sophie would instantly calm down. When they used to explore together, Kuro would be the brave one and Sophie would be closely behind. After about a month, Sophie gained this new confidence and started bullying her sister.

I had read about the bullying post and it seemed borderline bullying but not quite. I separated Sophie in a separate cage to test, but Kuro did not perk up and started popcorning when her sister was back.
There were a few instances where (I could be wrong) but it seemed like Sophie thought they were playing because she would be popcorning the whole time but Kuro did not interpret it that way.

Little(?) Flora sounds like a really smart girl. It’s absolutely fascinating seeing how they suddenly gain confidence in themselves.
Is that Flora in your picture? She looks so similar to Kuro!

 

[Wiebke]

Currently Kuro is on her own, Sophie, Rosie and George live together harmoniously.
Sophie is in heat right now so George is extra happy.

Question:
Kuro (3.5 months) is not a dominant piggy. She was the bottom in the hierarchy when she lived him her mother and sister.

I was reading that it usually works better if it’s a boar coming from a higher position in the hierarchy than the sow.

I reattempted and Sophie and Kuro tolerated each other. Sophie bickered a bit with Rosie.

When I put George into the mix, there was immediate tension between him and Kuro. (Well, more from Kuro than George.)

She immediately lunged at him, no blood was drawn. He did not really respond, basically shoved her away and it happened a few times.

I understand there is no magic spell that can make them get along.

Would it be better if I waited until Kuro was in heat? I heard that can help.

If that helps, would it be best if I separated the cage in half and put Kuro and Rosie together and George and Sophie together?
(With a daily play date with George, Sophie and Rosie?)

At the moment Kuro lunges at him through the bars. He doesn’t care. Instead he humps her sister directly in front of her

Thank you for any advice!

Edit: George has increased his eating since being put in with the girls. Looks like that was the “medicine” he needed.

Hi!

Kuro sounds very fear-aggressive (lunging is a defensive behaviour). I would recommend that you split your 4 into two pairs and keep them next to each other so Kuro can hopefully over time lose her fear.
The more you push a bonding now, the more the fronts will harden. Babies born to highly stressed out mothers experience these exceptional stress levels as their normal default setting while still in the womb. They will always remain highly wired because of that. Some babies are more strongly affected than others, even in the same litter.
There is never a quick solution for cases like that. It can take months and in some cases a bonding with a piggy that has not been part of the birth family will never be successfully accepted. I have adopted a number of these piggies. It's been and it is still an ongoing challenge with them.
Moody guinea pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour

 

[Mamich]

Thank you very much @Wiebke
I really cannot express in words how grateful I am for the amount of advice I have received from you.
Thank you for being so patient and giving me so much advice.
I had ordered a guinea pig sling(Unsure of the word but it looks like a baby wrap mothers use.)
I will be reading this guide immediately.

Thank you again!