Should we separate our guinea pigs?

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Jacqueline77

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We had 2 male guinea pigs, Stuart and Oreo, who were 5 and half years old but sadly Oreo passed away just before new year. We had them both from 6 weeks old. We decided it would be better for Stuart to have company when Oreo passed away so now have 2 new male guinea who we’ve had for around 5 weeks (we were advised they are brothers and were 3 months old when we got them). After a few trials of ‘playtime’ with the 3 of them together in a playpen we decided it was best to keep our old guinea pig in his own separate cage and our 2 new Guinea pigs (Bob & Rocky) have plenty space in their own 2 layered cage. Stuart seems very content with this set up and has separate ‘playtimes’. We had absolutely no issues with our old guinea pigs, Stuart & Oreo, getting along together but Bob and Rocky are causing us some concern. Sometimes they seem to get along fine however there has also been fairly frequent body language suggesting tension between them (teeth bearing, loud chittering and they sometimes do not seem particularly relaxed with each other’s company), they’ve jumped at each other a couple of times and then either one has ran off or we have intervened and removed them from their cage to calm them down. We’ve been keeping a close eye on them and doing quite a lot of reading online about bonding, dominance etc but having no experience of these issues with our old Guinea pigs we are just not sure what to do now. Is it inevitable they’re not going to get on? Should we separate them now or should we just keep persevering to see if they get along with time ? Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
 
Well done on separating the pair from Stuart. A boar trio rarely works, especially if you have boars that are yet to go through their teens.

The two new piggies are just at the start of their teen months. This can be a tense time even for a well bonded pair. The important thing is character compatibility. Whether they’re related or not has no bearing on whether they will get on.

Boars need minimum 150x60cm, two of everything and all exits must have two exits. For a bond to work, there can only be one top pig. Going by what you are saying (I’m guessing), it may be that none wants to back down. Does one of them accept being chased, mounted and/or humped? Is there any chasing and is it one who chases the other? If so, what does the chased do?

I think given they’re jumping each other, I would separate them for a few days, but have them in a cage next to each other. Watch how they behave when separated. If one is biting at the bars and the other is just doing his own thing/ignoring then that may be your answer. From what you say about jumping at each other and teeth bearing/teeth chattering, it possibly sounds like they won’t be compatible. Depending on how you proceed and how they behave, the option to try and reintroduce may be a possibility. If you do decide to try again, you should have oven gloves ready. My worry is that jumping at each other isn’t a good sign.

If this is the case, you have a number of options:
You could bond one of them with Stuart and have the other in a cage next door.

You could leave them all living side by side, although a live-in friend would be better.

You could bond the two new boys with a boar each - through a rescue once they’re back to running and can offer boar dating.

Have a read of the guides below on boar pairings and also the different levels of dominance.

If you have a video of their behaviour, you could upload to a third party like YouTube or Vimeo and post the link here.

A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
 
:agr: This will also help you Bonds In Trouble determine the functionality of their bond. As siikibam has said though, if one isn’t backing down, and they both want to be dominant then that isn’t a good sign for their relationship.

To also add, you say a large cage on two layers. Do note that piggies are ground roaming and need their cage to meet size requirements on a single level, upper levels cannot be added towards the cage size and are considered bonus spaces only. The bottom part of their cage needs to be a minimum of 150x60cm but 180x60cm is recommended for a boar pair.
 
Thanks for both the above replies which were both really helpful.
They do a bit of chasing, mounting, jumping etc but probably not as much as they did in the first couple of weeks. It is hard to tell for sure who is more dominant. I would have said Rocky’s behaviour suggest it’s him but I’m just not convinced if Bob will tolerate it and I think perhaps Rocky is beginning to realise that. To observe them Rocky seems like a more active guinea pig, gets more excited etc, and Bob a bit more laid back but it’s so hard to determine if that’s actually the case with the relationship between the 2 of them! I don’t know if it’s just coincidence (or just our perception) but sometimes we feel after we’ve had them out to hold or play, it’s when we put them back in the cage afterwards the aggressive behaviours appears more heightened?
It is interesting what you said about the two layered cage as the 2 layers would be plenty space overall as per your advice but not on one layer alone. I had, perhaps wrongly, thought 2 layers would be ideal as gave them their own space out of sight from each other if they chose to do that? However they do often chose to be quite close together on the same level and sometimes sleep under the same ‘hidey’ together. They don’t particularly seem to fight over food either. So some of their behaviours do seem to suggest they like each other or they want to try and get along?
We would consider getting a larger cage. Is there any particular cages you would recommend? I saw an L-shaped one layer cage which would give them the overall space you recommend? Is it worth trying them in a bigger cage, is there potential for that to reverse any aggression /dislike which has already established?
Many Thanks!
 
We also weren’t sure if it would cause them more upset to move them into a new cage as they’ve not long been in their new cage as we’ve only had them for 5 weeks.
 
As guinea pigs are ground roaming, they aren’t natural climbers, therefore any area connected by a ramp doesn’t count. I can see why you’d think being able to go up to another floor would enable them to get away from each other, but it’s just not the case in reality. Plus the ramp takes up space on both levels so they have less floor space due to the ramp itself. Also, for teen boars, having a ramp can be a source of trouble, if one decides it’s their territory they can refuse to let the other use it.

You need to respect their hierarchy - i appreciate it might be hard for you to tell which one is which - which means doing everything for the dominant piggy first and sometimes handling the submissive first will mean the dominant feels the need to overexert their dominance to reinforce their position. However, if they are both appearing dominant and one isn’t backing down, then the point is not relevant because a relationship like that won’t work

A bigger cage will not fix a relationship - if they cannot form a hierarchy and don’t like each other now, then they still won’t like each other in a bigger cage. However if their tensions are simply due to lack of space (rather than incompatibility), then it can help for them to have more room, particularly as they are teenagers now.
You are absolutely right though, in that changing cage size does constitute a change in territory and will result in further dominance while they reestablish themselves. This can be managed by using soiled bedding in the new cage so it still smells of them. There is a section in one of the guides which has been linked in which deals with this issue.
 
Do just be aware that if their relationship is unstable, having a new cage/territory could be the thing which breaks them at that point but ultimately if they don’t get on, then they are going to properly fall out at some point anyway.

If things really are tense between them, then It may be worth doing a trial separation before buying a new cage as whatever happens from the trial might influence the route you take cage wise.

A single Midwest cage isn’t big enough for boars - it only measures 120x60cm (8 sq ft), for boars you need 180x60cm (12 sq ft) - but putting two midwests together is fine. It also means if their bond isn’t viable you can just separate the cage two cages and they can live in one cage each as neighbours. (One Midwest is fine for a single piggy with a neighbour - a single piggy needing a 120x60cm cage as a minimum)

The alternative is c&c cages. They are fantastic as they can be configured (as long as they meet size requirements) to any shape you require and can easily be divided if there are problems.
You can buy them as full kits or just buy the grids on Amazon (as long as they are 9 hole grids, not 8 hole) and make a base yourself (a piece of plastic sheeting works well if you can’t get correx). A c&c which is 5 grids by 2 grids is needed for a boar pair (this measures 180cm x 77cm). However, if they were to need to be separated, they would
benefit from having but a 4x2 C&c cage each (150x77cm). Having space beyond minimum cage sizes really will make all the difference to their lives even as separates if it comes to that

Member Gallery: C&C cages/homemade cages
Cage Size Guide
 
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Thanks very much. All very helpful.
Just to clarify, if we had a trial separation what kind of thing would we be looking out for? Would it just be a case of seeing what happens when we put them back together after a day or so apart to see if they were still aggressive towards each other?
if we went straight for the larger cage and they continued to display aggressive behaviours but no full blown fight would we just keep them together In case they eventually worked things out or would they be best separated at that point?
 
Jacqueline77 said:
Thanks very much. All very helpful.
Just to clarify, if we had a trial separation what kind of thing would we be looking out for? Would it just be a case of seeing what happens when we put them back together after a day or so apart to see if they were still aggressive towards each other?
if we went straight for the larger cage and they continued to display aggressive behaviours but no full blown fight would we just keep them together In case they eventually worked things out or would they be best separated at that point?
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The ‘bonds in trouble’ guide linked earlier explains better, but if one piggy looks to be happier to be away from the other, then that is a sure sign of a problem between them, but otherwise yes, upon reintroduction if they go for each other or any dominance behaviours are on the more concerning side (‘dominance behaviours guide under the warning signs section’) appear then they’ll likely need to be permanently separated. Do ensure that, if you try a trial separation, that when you reintroduce them, you do so on neutral territory and following the details in this guide Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics. You cannot simply put them back together in their normal cage for reintroduction - it needs to be done properly so as to not cause an issue between them

It depends entirely on the behaviours you see. You don’t need to wait for a full blown fight to separate them but you do need to judge when things are too much - If one is clearly unhappy, if it is clear one isn’t backing down into a submissive position, then do not wait to separate them - their relationship isn’t working. What can sometimes happen is one seems to take it for a while but then suddenly enough is enough and fights back. Again, the dominance behaviours guide explains what is within normal behaviours and when things are more concerning.
 
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
I don’t know if we’re just being overly optimistic as we really want them to get on (our last 2 boars were no problem at all) but it still feels like there is maybe a little hope. I know it’s so difficult to say for sure but it can often appear like neither of them actually want to fight and are trying hard themselves to refrain. They do show some encouraging signs and often seem to go their separate ways if tensions are rising but as I’ve said in earlier posts every so often they can’t seem to contain it and jump at each other.
I wonder if many boar pairs can start like this and then it still works out or is that is rare? !
 
A lot will depend on if what you are seeing is just normal guinea pig behaviour (which can look quite rough) or truly a bond in trouble.
Have a look at some of the videos in the guides you have been linked to.

The Midwest cage could work if you get get 2 and link them together in an l-shape. This has the added advantage that if they do eventually have to be permanently separated they both end up with a decent sized cage and can still interact through the bars.
 
I have two male guinea pigs, and I first had two and then one passed, so I got another one. When the new guinea pig Cosmo met my old one Waffles, he was very aggressive and did a bunch of dominant humping. When we let them introduce for a few hours we tried setting them in a newly cleaned cage, and Cosmo was still aggressive, so we used cardboard to split the cage overnight. In the morning, we took the cardboard out and watched them. There was rumble strutting, and a few teeth showing, but as long as they are not making each other squeal or BLEED, they should be fine. Make sure you watch for around the ears, that's where they tend to bite. Be careful if there is a fight and make sure you don't use bare hands, they can bite you hard. overall also make sure they have plenty of space to work out their problems and make sure they do get floor time together because it's very important to let them get monitored playing together. Make sure you always keep a bunch of hay and veggies on the floor so they have a way of being distracted. That is how my guinea pigs got on so well together. Thanks for listening to my reply!
 
wafflesandcosmopiggies said:
I have two male guinea pigs, and I first had two and then one passed, so I got another one. When the new guinea pig Cosmo met my old one Waffles, he was very aggressive and did a bunch of dominant humping. When we let them introduce for a few hours we tried setting them in a newly cleaned cage, and Cosmo was still aggressive, so we used cardboard to split the cage overnight. In the morning, we took the cardboard out and watched them. There was rumble strutting, and a few teeth showing, but as long as they are not making each other squeal or BLEED, they should be fine. Make sure you watch for around the ears, that's where they tend to bite. Be careful if there is a fight and make sure you don't use bare hands, they can bite you hard. overall also make sure they have plenty of space to work out their problems and make sure they do get floor time together because it's very important to let them get monitored playing together. Make sure you always keep a bunch of hay and veggies on the floor so they have a way of being distracted. That is how my guinea pigs got on so well together. Thanks for listening to my reply!
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Not entirely correct - squealing can actually be submission squealing which is something you absolutely do want. It means one is accepting their position as submissive.

Also, it’s not right to just remove a divider and allow each piggy to wander into each other half of the cage - that will be seen as a territory invasion and can cause big problems. Any introductions need to be carried out on neutral territory at all times.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Not entirely correct - squealing can actually be submission squealing which is something you absolutely do want. It means one is accepting their position as submissive.

Also, it’s not right to just remove a divider and allow each piggy to wander into each other half of the cage - that will be seen as a territory invasion and can cause big problems. Any introductions need to be carried out on neutral territory at all times.
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This is my personal experience of how my guinea pigs reacted. I only separated my two guinea pigs overnight because I could not monitor their behavior and I didn't want any pig to get hurt. If my guinea pigs ever get into a fight and one squeal, They usually get hurt. I meant whenever they are fighting, not just a random squeal. I do know that one takes the alpha type position and the other stands down. Thank you for your opinion and I do agree with you and I apologize on how I worded the part about squealing!
 
If they are truly fighting then they shouldn’t be together at all.
 
We have now purchased a new larger cage for our 2 boars to see if the extra space helps their relationship. Apart from moving some of their bedding and items etc to ensure familiar scents in the new cage is there anything else we should or could do to increase the chance of a smooth transition to their new cage?
 
Jacqueline77 said:
We have now purchased a new larger cage for our 2 boars to see if the extra space helps their relationship. Apart from moving some of their bedding and items etc to ensure familiar scents in the new cage is there anything else we should or could do to increase the chance of a smooth transition to their new cage?
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Not really, just keeping the bedding etc.
Hopefully the extra space will help, but as mentioned, space alone isn’t enough. They have to want to be together and that isn’t something you can influence.
I hope it goes well
 
We moved our 2 guinea pigs into a larger cage to see if that helped their relationship, as per posts on this thread . That was about 5 weeks ago. They haven’t had a full blown fight but they have continued to show aggressive behaviour towards each other and they have jumped at each other aggressively on a number of accessions so it’s pretty obvious now they don’t really like each other. We could possibly have kept them together but I think we have given them enough time to try and get on? We were worried they were going to really hurt each other one day soon! The problem is we now have 3 male guinea pigs in 3 separate cages (our old guinea pig Stuart who’s not far off 6 years old but seems well and healthy after losing his buddy in December and our 2 new Guinea pigs Bob and Rocky who are around 4/ 5 months old). We’re just not sure where to go from here as doesn’t seem like the solution to have 3 lone guinea pigs in 3 separate cages. Any suggestions?
 
Living side by side means they can interact through the bars so they won’t be lonely but the young ones are young and would benefit from having a live In friend each if that is an option for you. There is nothing wrong with keeping them living separately but in side by side cages though - there are many members who do have piggies as neighbours for lofe due to fall outs.

Have you tried one of the youngsters with Stuart? (Just re read your post and it seems the problem was between the two young boys, so might it be an option that one of them would bond with Stuart?)

So your options are

Keeping them all as they are - side by side and separate
Neutering (and then the six week wait) and bonding the younger boys with a sow each. Your older boy may not be a candidate for neutering given his age so keeping him single and side by side with one of the boar/sow pairs for interaction through the bars.
Taking them all dating to find a new boar friend each, or taking just the younger two to find a new boar friend each (again, with the older as a single piggy living next to one of the pairs). Given they are teenagers, bonding them with another boar can be trickier, not impossible though, but using the help of a rescue centre will be very valuable to ensure the two piggies do actually want to be together and you’re not stuck in a situation with even more single piggies due to failed bonds

One benefit of them being paired up with another piggy is that their cages no longer need to be side by side, they can be stacked/put on tables to save floor space (except if you’ve got a single piggy at all, they must be side by side with another piggy/pair)

The con of course is that you’ve got five/six piggies and it needs to be your call as to whether that is a viable option for you
 
Thanks for your reply and advice.
We have thought about trying to bond one of them with Stuart but we feel he’s so old and content we don’t want to upset him in any way and felt he wouldn’t be up for sharing a cage with a very active younger boar? His cage has been beside theirs for 3 months and he hasn’t really shown any interest in them so is this a sign he would rather just be alone? On the other hand the younger ones seem totally desperate to see him, especially Bob! When we first got the 2 babies we tried all 3 of them together for a ‘play date’ in a neutral play pen. It was fine the first few times but around the 3rd time a bit of a scuffle broke out between the 3 of them (Bob was chasing Stuart and Rocky seemed to get annoyed with this and went for Stuart). We have kept them both separate from Stuart since then. Could this incident potentially have affected the relationship / bond between the 2 babies?
Given the above is it still worth a try maybe with Bob & Start together? We feel Bob really wants the company but not Stuart.
Since separating the young ones yesterday Bob has been up at the bars a lot, wondering what’s going on etc but Rocky hasn’t. However we wondered if that was because rocky got to stay in his original cage and Bob got moved to another cage so he was more likely to be unsettled by the move?
it is hard to know for definite who is the more dominant of Bob & Rocky, it is probably Bob that has ended up jumping at Rocky but Rocky certainly doesn’t seem the type not to put up any fight at all and be submissive to Bob. Is it worth trying them together again after some time apart or given the situation I’ve described is it unlikely they’ll ever get on?
It is reassuring to know at least they won’t be lonely In the meantime with cages side By side until we work out what to do for the long term.
 
Trying to put three boars together does have the potential to disrupt the bond between the original two, particularly if there was an underlying problem between the original pair anyway. If both Bob and Rocky want to be dominant, neither will back down, then there would always have been a problem between them at some point or another, even if you had never put them with Stuart. If thats the case and they clearly are not getting on , then there is no point in trying them again. They don’t tend to change their minds about another piggy. When they don’t like each other, they don’t like each other.

Being at the bars is not necessarily a sign of wanting company - it can be a bad thing, wanting to argue with the piggy next door.

Its not the reason things didn’t work out, but when bonding it can’t be done by separate meetings. Its a one time thing, all or nothing. You put them on neutral territory for several hours and then if they get on, they stay together. If they don’t accept each other, then they are separated and not put together again. If you put them together and then separate and then put together again, all that happens is the process get interrupted and they have to start right from the beginning every time, they never get to the point of forming a rough hierarchy in the bonding meeting (although fully establishing a relationship takes around two weeks). I only mention it in case you do try bonding one with another piggy. It wouldn’t have made a difference here though given boar trios generally don’t work.
 
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Our neighbour has a lone male guinea pig, 18 months old, who was part of a male pair however his cage mate passed away. They are happy to try and pair up one of our young boars with theirs, which would be ideal if it works out. Is there much chance of this succeeding? Any advice to increase the chance of successful bonding? We’re planning to introduce one of our boys (not sure which one would be best yet) with theirs on neutral territory and observe how they get on.
 
Jacqueline77 said:
Our neighbour has a lone male guinea pig, 18 months old, who was part of a male pair however his cage mate passed away. They are happy to try and pair up one of our young boars with theirs, which would be ideal if it works out. Is there much chance of this succeeding? Any advice to increase the chance of successful bonding? We’re planning to introduce one of our boys (not sure which one would be best yet) with theirs on neutral territory and observe how they get on.
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It comes entirely down to character compatibility - it’s just a case of trying them together and seeing what happens. There’s nothing you can really do to influence It at all, it’s all down the piggies.
Just do ensure that if you bond them that it is a one time thing - if the meeting goes well then don’t separate them and they then move into their new, thoroughly cleaned out cage together after those few hours in the bonding pen
Good luck
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
 
Good news, we had what we think is a pretty successful bonding with Bob and our neighbours boar today! So we will give it a week or 2 to make sure it’s definitely been a success then our next step will be to try and find a buddy for Rocky as we still don’t think it’s a good idea to put him in with our 6 year old boar Stuart.
If we were to get another boar to try and bond with Rocky we’d be worried if it didn’t work out we’d be back to square one with 3 separate guinea pigs in 3 separate cages.
So we’re thinking our best option would be to get Rocky neutered and get a sew. Is there still potential for a boar and sew not to bond or to fight? If we get Rocky neutered we would wait 6 weeks to put them in the same cage but could we get the sew at any point within that 6 weeks and have them in separate cages in same room or would we better waiting until past the 6 weeks before we get a sew and just putting them straight in together?
 
that’s brilliant news!

Any bond comes down to character compatibility and mutual liking regardless of the sex of the piggies - so yes there is a chance a boar and a sow won’t bond if they don’t like each other. However, a boar/sow bonding tends to be more stable once acceptance has occurred.
I personally, would have him neutered, do the six week wait and then find a suitable sow via dating at a rescue centre if possible.
 
Okay thanks, we have a couple of weeks to think about it anyway as we won’t do anything until we make sure Bob is settled in his new home. After a couple of weeks we would hope Bob and his new buddy would have established their relationship? We were quite surprised as Rusty is twice the size of Bob and 1 year older but it appeared that Bob was still dominant and Rusty accepted it. They seemed to like each other though and were sleeping and purring together in the same hidey. I’m guessing dominance doesn’t always come down to size though?
 
Jacqueline77 said:
Okay thanks, we have a couple of weeks to think about it anyway as we won’t do anything until we make sure Bob is settled in his new home. After a couple of weeks we would hope Bob and his new buddy would have established their relationship? We were quite surprised as Rusty is twice the size of Bob and 1 year older but it appeared that Bob was still dominant and Rusty accepted it. They seemed to like each other though and were sleeping and purring together in the same hidey. I’m guessing dominance doesn’t always come down to size though?
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No size isn’t a factor.

It takes around two weeks for newly introduced piggies to fully form a relationship and hierarchy
 
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