Specific Vitamin C Advice

[Gazzdw]

Hi guys,

I have been visiting the forums a lot over the last couple of years as we have had so many guineas leave us.

I was hoping for specific recommendations. The situation is:

We have a 6.5 year old female and I am certain at this point she has a Vitamin C deficiency. She is displaying all the symptoms on top of possibly a UTI.

We originally took her to the vet yesterday after discovering blood in her urine a few days ago. He felt for stones and could not feel anything where he normally finds them and she wasnt squeeking when he was prodding around. For many weeks she was making that painful sound when lifting her rear but it was so far and few between we did not act on it. Other than that she was behaving/eating totally normally.

The vet has put her on Metacam for immflamation and to bring her back "If she doesnt perk up in a few days" for an Xray.

There has definitely been a deterioation over the last 48 hours, she shows an interest for food but with little energy and is picky about what she eats. When she does eat it is very little.

I have plenty of Oxbow Critical Care on hand and I am awaiting a call from the Vets regarding how to up her Vitamin C intake as I am certain the diet she is on now is not giving her enough of it.

I was hoping someone could actually specify a recommended Vitamin C supplement they have given their poorly guinea pig? I am awaiting delivery for Oxbow Vitamin C hay tablets but just in case she doesnt like them, I thought I should have a human vitamin c replacement handy maybe in liquid or tablet form. Please can someone name a particular one I should get as I have not found the answer on the forum before.

Thanks ever so much!

 

[sport_billy]

Hello

Welcome to the forum

Sorry to hear your piggy is poorly.

Stones can only be diagnosed by x-ray or ultrasound

Metacam is a good call, maybe worth askign the vet to try some antibiotics Septrin is very good for UTI in case of infection.

Does she eat Pepper? Pepper is high in vit c as is parsley. As long as she is eating something with VIt C in it she should be getting enough. As well as Oxbow CC you can get some Science Recovery food, piggies tend to like taste and feed one cc one feed and a science the next. Science has Vit C added to it Recovery & RecoveryPlus: Liquid Feed for Critical Care - Supreme Petfoods

@furryfriends (TEAS) @Freela @Wiebke @Abi_nurse @Jaycey Any ideas on Vit C

I would advise getting back to vet ASAP as she is not improving

 

[Gazzdw]

Thank you very much for the quick reply.

She has only had 1 dose of Metacam (0.14) so far but I feel the issue is deeper than that. We have had very bad experiences with anti biotics with guineas in the past regarding apetite loss and then they don't recover. We would be concerned about going down that route unless absolutely neccessary.

Pepper she use to really like red pepper but wouldnt actively take it now. This morning she accepted her favourites: red leaf/romaine lettuce, celery and a bit of kale.

@sport_billy Please could you clarify what you mean about feeding one CC one feed and a science recovery food the next? Do you mean feed a syringe of CC, then a syringe of nugget feed, then syringe of Science, in one sitting?

I will explain all to the vets when they phone before 6 today - thanks again, this is such a great resource!

 

[sport_billy]

I think the lack of eating is a pain response. What does she weigh? Is that dog metacam?

Some AB's do that, was she on baytril?

I see you are in Warwickshire can you get to Northampton?

You are near one of the best Guinea Pig vets in country
Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic
Simon Maddock & Kim Maddock
1 Limehurst Road
Northampton
Northamptonshire
NN5 6LP
01604 478888

I would make up small amounts of both at 4pm feed CC at 6pm feed Science Selective.

 

[Freela]

I'm in Canada, so our products are listing. However, every pet store here carries liquid vitamin C supplements that are meant to be either mixed with water (not recommended) or administered directly (the dosing for number of drops to syringe directly will be on the package and can vary with brand.) My vet tends to recommend adding vitamin C as a supplement to sick pigs, so we have given these in the past with no ill effects. In addition, most pelleted feeds and critical care foods do have vitamin C added, so if you are syringing her those foods she should be getting an adequate amount, which you can then supplement further with drops if you choose.

 

[Swissgreys]

Thank you very much for the quick reply.

She has only had 1 dose of Metacam (0.14) so far but I feel the issue is deeper than that. We have had very bad experiences with anti biotics with guineas in the past regarding apetite loss and then they don't recover. We would be concerned about going down that route unless absolutely neccessary.

Pepper she use to really like red pepper but wouldnt actively take it now. This morning she accepted her favourites: red leaf/romaine lettuce, celery and a bit of kale.

@sport_billy Please could you clarify what you mean about feeding one CC one feed and a science recovery food the next? Do you mean feed a syringe of CC, then a syringe of nugget feed, then syringe of Science, in one sitting?

I will explain all to the vets when they phone before 6 today - thanks again, this is such a great resource!

You have already had some excellent advice from @sport_billy but I went through something similar recently.

Our guinea pig Ruby wasn't well, and on examination the vet couldn't feel any stones either.
An x-ray revealed severe bladder sludge, so she immediately had a bladder flush to remove this.

She was then put on a 2 week course of Baytril (in addition to other things) and this wiped her appetite completely.
I seriously thought we were going to loose her at several points, and we were syringe feeding around the clock.
We ended up switching to Septrin and the difference was incredible - appetite picked up, and she slowly stated to eat on her own again.
I was supplementing with various recovery foods via syringe for a long time, but it did become less and less as her appetite returned.

What I would say is that you need to be quite 'proactive' when treating for this sort of thing.
If one lot of antibiotics aren't working then ask for (insist!) on another.
Start adding probiotics to the mix as well.
If you think she is in pain ask to increase the dose of Metacam (she is on a pretty low dose right now).
I did switch between various recovery foods (Emeraid, CC, CC fine grind, A Swiss one and Recovery Formula).
I would also add the occasional syringe of something nice like a fruit puree, but this will depend on your piggy and the state of her digestion.

Having said all of that you piggy is quite an old lady now, and you know her best.
Only you can decide how much you want to push her recovery.
I hope you see some improvement soon.

 

[Gazzdw]

@sport_billy She only weighed around 700g yesterday, there has been dramatic weight loss over a couple of weeks for sure.

Yes it is dog metacam. The pigs where we have had bad experieces have definitely been on Baytril.

The other supplement we have here is Vetark Pro-C Probiotic - I am thinking to add this powder to red leaf lettuce which she loves, then syringe critical care later this afternoon as suggested. The Recovery Plus critical care suggested is difficult for me to get at short notice.

Thank you so much for the vet recommendation! We may well switch vets and book her in to that one tomorrow!

@Freela @Swissgreys thank you for your detailed contributions, you have all helped me a lot

 

[sport_billy]

@sport_billy She only weighed around 700g yesterday, there has been dramatic weight loss over a couple of weeks for sure.

Yes it is dog metacam. The pigs where we have had bad experieces have definitely been on Baytril.

The other supplement we have here is Vetark Pro-C Probiotic - I am thinking to add this powder to red leaf lettuce which she loves, then syringe critical care later this afternoon as suggested. The Recovery Plus critical care suggested is difficult for me to get at short notice.

Thank you so much for the vet recommendation! We may well switch vets and book her in to that one tomorrow!

@Freela @Swissgreys thank you for your detailed contributions, you have all helped me a lot

Simon and Kim are very highly regarded as used by many on this forum.

 

[cavy king]

You have already had some excellent advice from @sport_billy but I went through something similar recently.

Our guinea pig Ruby wasn't well, and on examination the vet couldn't feel any stones either.
An x-ray revealed severe bladder sludge, so she immediately had a bladder flush to remove this.

She was then put on a 2 week course of Baytril (in addition to other things) and this wiped her appetite completely.
I seriously thought we were going to loose her at several points, and we were syringe feeding around the clock.
We ended up switching to Septrin and the difference was incredible - appetite picked up, and she slowly stated to eat on her own again.
I was supplementing with various recovery foods via syringe for a long time, but it did become less and less as her appetite returned.

What I would say is that you need to be quite 'proactive' when treating for this sort of thing.
If one lot of antibiotics aren't working then ask for (insist!) on another.
Start adding probiotics to the mix as well.
If you think she is in pain ask to increase the dose of Metacam (she is on a pretty low dose right now).
I did switch between various recovery foods (Emeraid, CC, CC fine grind, A Swiss one and Recovery Formula).
I would also add the occasional syringe of something nice like a fruit puree, but this will depend on your piggy and the state of her digestion.

Having said all of that you piggy is quite an old lady now, and you know her best.
Only you can decide how much you want to push her recovery.
I hope you see some improvement soon.

metacam is for dogs why are you giving it to your guinea pig give it prednisolone for pain

 

[sport_billy]

metacam is for dogs why are you giving it to your guinea pig give it prednisolone for pain

Excuse me you are mistaken

Metacam is licensed for Guinea Pigs in the UK, it is available in two strengths Dog Strength and Cat Strength and is prescribed for pain both in UK and US and I would imagine in other parts of the world also

Prednisolone is a steroid

 

[cavy king]

metacam according to petcare rx is only for dogs thankyou very much

 

[sport_billy]

metacam according to petcare rx is only for dogs thankyou very much

Not going to argue with you You are entitled to your opinion

Petcare RX is a US website you can get prescription and other drugs from. Metacam is indeed licenced for Dogs

In the UK Metacam is prescribed to Guinea Pigs by veterinary practitioners

 

[Swissgreys]

metacam is for dogs why are you giving it to your guinea pig give it prednisolone for pain

And just to add that prednisolone is a steroid, and steroids should never be given to guinea pigs.
More about this here:
The Problems With Steroids And Why They Shouldn't Be Used.

Metacam is only 'officially' licensed for certain animals (such as dogs and cats), but is well used and very effective in many species.
Over the years I have used it successfully for dogs, rabbits, and guinea pigs (prescribed by a vet of course).
For a drug like Metacam to be officially licensed for additional species like rabbits and guinea pigs would cost the manufacturers a lot of money, and require new packaging and information leaflets for the exact same drug.
It is a worthwhile process for the 'popular' pet species like cats and dogs, but simply not financially viable for 'exotics', because although it works well for them, there simply is very little demand. Plus many vets don't like to stock items like this as turnover is so low they are often left with out of date meds, which is an additional cost they have to absorb.
Many people simply don't bother taking pets like guinea pigs and rabbits to the vet - why spend hundreds on an animal that only cost a few pounds?
Because of this medication packaged specifically for small animals is relatively rare.
But my lot love Metacam so much that they don't care whose picture is on the box

 

[Freela]

metacam according to petcare rx is only for dogs thankyou very much

Many medications, while targeted to dogs or cats, are prescribed to other animals as well. Because that's where the money is, most meds are targeted to dogs and cats, but are regularly and safely prescribed off-label for other species. There are definitely meds that are safe for dogs and cats that are NOT safe for guinea pigs (some antibiotics come to mind), but Metacam is not one of them.

 

[fanniephina]

You are at the right place with so many really knowledgeable people I am learning from as well. I can't add to the valuable advice here from our very loving and kind community but really wanted to send extra thoughts to you and your special girl. She's really lucky to have such a good pet parent.

Please let us know how she goes. Hugs to you both.

 

[Gazzdw]

@fanniephina Thank you for your very kind words

I am finding it tough as for the 2nd time in a row I have been the one off work for the week when a pig goes downhill at the same time.

She still takes the odd bit of lettuce or dandelion from us. Back to the vet today, we just want to know if we are at the point of no return -
Because there is always a battle in our heads of is it fair to keep getting her out for syringe feeding when if she has something like renal failure, something that she can't come back from then we feel its unfair to keep getting her out and disrupting her/making her more stressed.

She started making this grunting noise like a pig this morning which we have never heard before from any of our pigs.

 

[Gazzdw]

Just back from the vets....

She has been left there for an x ray but we are moving forward with the idea we will help her on her way this afternoon.

Vet suspects something deeper than UTI, or stones and given her age. She smelt like a poorly pig and there was a lot of blood in her urine (as has been the case for days). I just hope the x ray throws up something that reinforces there is nothing else we can do and we don't make the decision to help her on her way when she can be rectified.

 

[fanniephina]

I'm so sorry for the both of you and the stress you can really have in this time. Can just send extra hugs and thoughts to you. She can feel that she is very loved.

 

[Gazzdw]

Thank you @fanniephina.

Literally just heard from the vet regarding x rays. There is no evidence of stones in her but there is calcification in her back legs and she is passing more blood in her urine. He does feel she is struggling.

We are going at 3 o'clock to make a decision. If there is any chance of keeping her alive on anti biotics I may ask for the Septrin and not Baytril (which they always prescribe).

Unlike most of our past guineas she never makes any audible sounds of being in pain. If she has a UTI, she hasnt been making that sound they do when they raise up to wee. We have seen her sort of lightly "bounce" up and down ending with a raise of the bum but no sounds.

 

[sport_billy]

Thank you @fanniephina.

Literally just heard from the vet regarding x rays. There is no evidence of stones in her but there is calcification in her back legs and she is passing more blood in her urine. He does feel she is struggling.

We are going at 3 o'clock to make a decision. If there is any chance of keeping her alive on anti biotics I may ask for the Septrin and not Baytril (which they always prescribe).

Unlike most of our past guineas she never makes any audible sounds of being in pain. If she has a UTI, she hasnt been making that sound they do when they raise up to wee. We have seen her sort of lightly "bounce" up and down ending with a raise of the bum but no sounds.

I am really sorry. I am sure you will back the best choice for her. It is difficult when they are poorly.

Maybe try Septrin and increased pain relief for a few days, but quality of life is always the most important thing. Or try and see Simon or Kim in Northampton

Tagging in @Freela @Abi_nurse @Pound Shilling & Pig @helen105281 @Wiebke for you

Sending your piggy lots of love

 

[Guinea-pigGaga]

Personally, I would take her off all antibiotics over the weekend, with the intention of taking her back to the vets on Monday to have a urine sample collected/cultured/sent for antibiotic sensitivity testing. Although, I would want to start Septrin on Monday.

I would want to provide full/maximum pain relief over the weekend, and simply monitor her - Weighing her daily, and being ready to step in with syringe feeding. Please ensure that she is drinking/getting enough fluids.

Sounds as though she may require pain relief for the foreseeable, possibly for the remainder of her life, but I am not sure that this is her time yet. . .

You can purchase vitamin C from the supermarket, a health food store, a pet store etc. . . It really doesn't matter, providing the product does not contain anything other than vitamin C (No other vitamins, or minerals/unnecessary additives etc). . . You just have to work out an appropriate dose.

 

[Lady Kelly]

Huge hugs for you, it is one of the hardest decisions to make. I had a piggy with renal failure and she was losing weight gradually as she was losing protein, not blood, in her urine. She was in no pain and apart from the weight loss there was no evidence of anything wrong. She kept going for 18 more months only needing daily pain relief in the last two weeks of her life before we had to have her put to sleep. If you are making the decision with your piggies best interests and comforts at heart then you cannot make a wrong decision. Sending you strength

 

[Gazzdw]

An update:

We have decided to give her every chance and have been given anti biotic Sulfatrim (same ingredients as Septrin, of which they didnt have any in stock) to give her twice a day on top of metacam. I asked about increasing the dose of metacam but he is very concerned doing that as apparently metacam can affect the kidneys which could well be what is failing her.

She has had some critical care and anti bs and shortly we will administer the metacam and rest of the CC portion. Thinking I will mix some pro biotic vitamin C mix in to the CC as well. None of us (the vet and us two) believe she will make it back but it only felt right to try.

 

[Freela]

I'm sorry the x-rays weren't more encouraging. Hoping for the best for her.

 

[Abi_nurse]

So sorry your having such a bad time. She does sound like quite a poorly piggie with multiple conditions here. To add the calcification in the hind limbs especially the knees is very common in older piggies. As for what exactly wrong I couldn't say for certain but things that spring to mind in your piggies case are, pyometra (uterus infection), uterine tumor, severe bladder infection which could be ascending up to the kidneys, renal failure or small stones undetected. Without knowing her history I wish I could help more.

Please let us know how she gets on? : (

 

[Gazzdw]

This morning Willows eyes look a bit brighter. Got up in the night to give her critical care and we are averaging a good 7 or 8ml (mixed critical care) every 3 or 4 hours. In between she will take the odd bit of kale, red lettuce and celery. She is still doing the behaviour when she shakes her back/rear up and down in very small motions then ends with a big raise of the rear. We think it is linked to when she is pooing. She is still showing zero signs of vocal pain.

Please could someone clarify the schedule of using anti biotics with pro biotics? Am I meant to be giving her probiotics (mixed in with critical care and vitamin C) ONLY on one occasion a day, a couple of hours after giving anti biotics or....can I use it around the clock (whenever I am feeding critical care) as long as it is 2 hours a part from anti biotics?

Thanks ever so much

 

[Gazzdw]

@Abi_nurse Thank you so much for your input. Willow has been a bit of warrior she hasnt ever suffered with anything else needing attention. The conditions that you mention would most of them of been picked up by the x rays yesterday? I know an infection wouldnt but maybe any tumours or stones?

 

[Gazzdw]

Hi everyone, it's @Gazzdw's partner here. Thought I'd give an update on Willow as Gazz has to attend a family event for the day so I am caring for Willow on my own. We have been persevering with round the clock critical care administration including Oxbow Vitamin C into the mix. She is on Metacam once a day and the Antibiotic Sulfatrim x2 daily. Willow has deteriorated, when we gave her a feed at midnight last night, when Gazz came down in the early hours to give her another feed she was still in the same position we had left her in. She's had 2 feeds since then and her next one is due shortly. She's currently in the same position we left her in after the last feed. She is hunched up, with spikey fur and head down into the corner. She will attempt to eat some fresh food (sometimes) when we offer it her, but seems too weak to actually be able to eat anything more than a small leaf or slowly crunch on some celery, kale or cucumber. She is producing faeces, they are quite sticky and come out as a long string of several of them at any time. She still raises her rump to pass urine or to excrete faeces too. I think we both know at this stage there is no coming back from this, when we get her out to adminster the feeds she looks around and seems interactive to a point, but obviously I don't know if she's actually looking around willing to get away, I like to think it's because she knows us and our voices, but that's just me. As always I'm finding it really difficult dealing with making the decision; do we continue this round the clock care in the hopes that she will start to get better? Or do we accept that at this point, she won't come back from this? It's hard to see her hunched over in the corner and I am reluctant to pick her up each time to feed her as I fear if she is in pain or feeling really poorly, force feeding her (with the best intentions of course) is not going to make her better.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I'm sorry for such a long message; I don't really have anyone I can run this by who loves Guinea's as much as we do, so I feel I'm in the right place asking for support here.

Thank you everyone - and for all of the messages of advice and support over the last few days with Gazz.

 

[Abi_nurse]

@Abi_nurse Thank you so much for your input. Willow has been a bit of warrior she hasnt ever suffered with anything else needing attention. The conditions that you mention would most of them of been picked up by the x rays yesterday? I know an infection wouldnt but maybe any tumours or stones?

Only stones really would be seen on an xray. An ultrasound may be able to rule in or out uterus problems and look at the kidneys and a blood sample.

With regards to pro biotics. There is not right or wrong way to give them. There is no proven evidence regards their use so I would see what others on here like to do as I know lots of people like to use them. : ) The best pro biotic is lots of fibre (e.g. Hay) or the syringe feeding formula your re getting into her which is high in fibre.(make sure this is thick and not runny) This will create and promote natural gut flora to help deal with the antibiotics.

So sorry she's taking a bad turn. There really isn't a right or wrong answer as to what to do with her. At her age I would be concerned about multiple issues but that does not mean you cannot give her a chance. Maybe have a good chat with your vet about the choices you have. Maybe see if they are not sure if they could get further advice from a more experienced colleague or exotic specialist. The main things that we think about when considering calling it a day are the five freedoms, is your piggie able or going to be able to be free from pain, free to act normally, free to eat and drink normally, free to have a perfect environment and free from fear. Obviously welfare is always compromised and complicated when they are poorly but see what you think and have a chat with your vet. They are best at knowing the situation and your little one. If it helps with clarity and please do tell me if I'm overstepping the mark but if you want an answer but don't think it's right to carry on you may want to consider a post mortem when the time comes to help with closure.

Very sorry she's still unwell. Hope this helps a little bit.

 

[Gazzdw]

The latest:

Willow has seemingly completely stopped passing blood in her urine or faeces. Still eating bits of food when we give it her and has started drinking lots of water (further sign of renal failure) she seems to have highs and lows in the day when she looks brighter. I have this week off work to watch over her.

@Abi_nurse Of course you're not overstepping the mark; you and everyone else has only ever given excellent input and we appreciate it very much . We had considered that with a previous piggie but we may well this time as we have been so invested in the fight for recovery.