Splitting a group into 2 - does this cause stress?

[Teresacholerton]

Hi Everyone

I have a group of 9 sows that recently lost their husboar. I also have a bonded pair of neutered boars, who live together but separately from the girls. Their cage is just below the girls so they can smell them but I’ve had no problems. The girls live in a 18 by 2 c and c and the boys have a 6 by 2.
I would like to put the boys with the girls but I know that is not recommended so I wondered if it is cruel to split them into two groups of one neutered boar with four sows and one with five.
The idea is that, selfishly, I want to be able to reduce the amount of cages as if I put the boys with the girls I can divide the cage into two, an 8 by 2 and a 10 by 2. Then removing the 6 by 2. This will save me at least 15 minutes a day in cleanIng and two loads of washing a week.
I work full time, have 3 kids, a carer for my mother as well as four rabbits, and 3 dogs so any time saving is important to me. (Also 2 cats and 2 gerbils but they don’t take up too much time as my kids look after those)
I don’t want to upset the pigs though so will it enrich their lives living in two mixed groups or will they miss each other. They will still be able to meet at the divide. Also I presume you all agree that it wouldn’t work to have all living together in the 18 by 2.
I once, stupidly, tried having the boys along side the girls instead of below and that didn’t work, as the boys got very sexually frustrated with each other. No fighting, as one of my boars is always Submissive, just costanted humping and chasing from the dominant one so I had to move them in case it developed into a fight.
Sorry for the long post. Any advice would be gratefully received

 

[Guinea pig love123]

I think that all of it would work as long as the boars get on well with the sows but sometimes in the wild if the group is huge two males work in a group of sows but I'm assuming that the size would literally be HUGE! So that probably wouldn't work but yes I think your idea would be fine but obviously expect fighting at the beginning

 

[Piggies&buns]

It would not work to have them all together. Two neutered boars to sows causes fights.

They can be split, you’re biggest challenge will be working out how to split and getting the combinations right.

 

[Guinea pig love123]

It would not work to have them all together. Two neutered boars to sows causes fights.

They can be split, you’re biggest challenge will be working out how to split and getting the combinations right.

Sorry if I wasn't clear but I meant that in the wild when they have HUGE numbers it sometimes happens

 

[Teresacholerton]

I was going to split them according to age so younger sows with youngest boar etc but how would I go about seeing who likes who the most? Should I go for the groups and I want first them swap them about if that doesn’t work?

 

[Guinea pig love123]

I was going to split them according to age so younger sows with youngest boar etc but how would I go about seeing who likes who the most? Should I go for the groups and I want first them swap them about if that doesn’t work?

I would have thought that the older with younger would work better so that they have no trouble finding their place it's like introducing a baby to the heard, the pups won't even think about trying to be top and for that reason the older one won't see them as a threat

 

[Piggies&buns]

It all comes down to character compatibility. The sows having a dominant sow in each group and the dominant sow accepting a boar. The boar is part of group hierarchy but not part of sow hierarchy. It’s not about age at all when bonding a boar in with sows - it’s entirely character.

@Wiebke would be the best person to advise on exactly how to split a herd and how easy it is actually going to be.

I wonder though, given you want to save space, whether it might be easier to rearrange your sows cage rather than split. It’s great they have such a big space and of course that is vital, but you could maybe make it a bit smaller. In theory an 11x2 is big enough for 9 piggies, but of course giving more space beyond recommendation is best, but I wonder whether you might be able to make it a couple of grids smaller (not necessarily taking it down to 11 though) to make managing it easier and without having to deal with making new bonds between the herd.

 

[Guinea pig love123]

It all comes down to character compatibility. The sows having a dominant sow in each group and the dominant sow accepting a boar. The boar is part of group hierarchy but not part of sow hierarchy. It’s not about age at all when bonding a boar in with sows - it’s entirely character.

@Wiebke would be the best person to advise on exactly how to split a herd and how easy it is actually going to be.

I wonder though, given you want to save space, whether it might be easier to rearrange your sows cage rather than split. It’s great they have such a big space and of course that is vital, but you could maybe make it a bit smaller. In theory an 11x2 is big enough for 9 piggies, but of course giving more space beyond recommendation is best, but I wonder whether you might be able to make it a couple of grids smaller, to make managing it easier and without having to deal with making new bonds between the herd.

That sounds like a great idea but if you were to do it that cage might get messy quicker as the poop is in as more confined space!

 

[Siikibam]

That sounds like a great idea but if you were to do it that cage might get messy quicker as the poop is in as more confined space!

It wouldn’t be much smaller given there are 9 of them.

I understand the need to cut back on the cleaning but would be hesitant to break the boar’s functioning bond. And working out who would go with which boar. Older sows can be a little more..’set in their ways’. If you can maybe work out the temperament of the top sows (1st, 2nd and 3rd in their hierarchy) and see which boar they may get on with. But wait for a response from Wiebke. I’ve no experience in a mixed herd.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Everyone

I have a group of 9 sows that recently lost their husboar. I also have a bonded pair of neutered boars, who live together but separately from the girls. Their cage is just below the girls so they can smell them but I’ve had no problems. The girls live in a 18 by 2 c and c and the boys have a 6 by 2.
I would like to put the boys with the girls but I know that is not recommended so I wondered if it is cruel to split them into two groups of one neutered boar with four sows and one with five.
The idea is that, selfishly, I want to be able to reduce the amount of cages as if I put the boys with the girls I can divide the cage into two, an 8 by 2 and a 10 by 2. Then removing the 6 by 2. This will save me at least 15 minutes a day in cleanIng and two loads of washing a week.
I work full time, have 3 kids, a carer for my mother as well as four rabbits, and 3 dogs so any time saving is important to me. (Also 2 cats and 2 gerbils but they don’t take up too much time as my kids look after those)
I don’t want to upset the pigs though so will it enrich their lives living in two mixed groups or will they miss each other. They will still be able to meet at the divide. Also I presume you all agree that it wouldn’t work to have all living together in the 18 by 2.
I once, stupidly, tried having the boys along side the girls instead of below and that didn’t work, as the boys got very sexually frustrated with each other. No fighting, as one of my boars is always Submissive, just costanted humping and chasing from the dominant one so I had to move them in case it developed into a fight.
Sorry for the long post. Any advice would be gratefully received

Hi!

I fully understand your wish to keep the cage number down but unless the two boars are really closely bonded and long term friends, two boars with any number of sows doesn't work, and sometimes not even then. You'd need a lot of space (like a room or at least half a decent-sized for the boars to be able to have their own mini territories if necessary.

Personally, it is much better to split up your sows as long as you do it along the lines of who is hanging out with who most in order to create two stable medium-sized groups. Give the sows, which are not quite happy/struggling to settle down in their new mini-group the chance to choose who they want to be with after about 3-4 days when the worst of the new group establishment has happened.
I usually give the doubtful ones of mines the option to see their old friends after that time. If they just say hello through the grids and then socialise with their new group, they are fine with the change; if they ignore their old friends completely, then that means that they are VERY happy with their new mates. But if they are really gnawing on the grids in order to get back with their friends, then they obviously want to be with them. The old bond is not yet broken by that stage and those that want to switch sides really want to fit in where they choose to be.

I would however recommend to have an opaque divider (cardboard or correx cable-tied to the dividing grids will do) for the first two weeks until both groups are fully and stably established if you cannot keep them physically separated and out of sight to concentrate on their on new group while that is still under construction. You may end up with one larger and one smaller group and move the divider accordingly but your piggies' happiness comes first before your own ideas for the sake of long term happiness.

I hope that this helps you?

 

[Teresacholerton]

Hi!

I fully understand your wish to keep the cage number down but unless the two boars are really closely bonded and long term friends, two boars with any number of sows doesn't work, and sometimes not even then. You'd need a lot of space (like a room or at least half a decent-sized for the boars to be able to have their own mini territories if necessary.

Personally, it is much better to split up your sows as long as you do it along the lines of who is hanging out with who most in order to create two stable medium-sized groups. Give the sows, which are not quite happy/struggling to settle down in their new mini-group the chance to choose who they want to be with after about 3-4 days when the worst of the new group establishment has happened.
I usually give the doubtful ones of mines the option to see their old friends after that time. If they just say hello through the grids and then socialise with their new group, they are fine with the change; if they ignore their old friends completely, then that means that they are VERY happy with their new mates. But if they are really gnawing on the grids in order to get back with their friends, then they obviously want to be with them. The old bond is not yet broken by that stage and those that want to switch sides really want to fit in where they choose to be.

I would however recommend to have an opaque divider (cardboard or correx cable-tied to the dividing grids will do) for the first two weeks until both groups are fully and stably established if you cannot keep them physically separated and out of sight to concentrate on their on new group while that is still under construction. You may end up with one larger and one smaller group and move the divider accordingly but your piggies' happiness comes first before your own ideas for the sake of long term happiness.

I hope that this helps you?

That’s a great help thank you . I have a much better idea now. It’s so hard to tell who likes who as they are always grouped up together when I go in the room. Should I divide the girls first and let them establish their new groups before adding the boys? The good thing is I’ve never had any aggression from my girls but I always presume the older ones are the more dominant. I do hear the odd teeth chattering and rumble but it only lasts a second. I think I will spend next weekend watching them. Whenever I’m in the room they just see me as food so hang out at the bars squeaking at me. Hoping for more food. The reason I was dividing by age is that the four younger girls have been there a year where is the other have been together 2 to 4 years. The oldest two are 4 and my first ones. I therefore presumed the older ones may have the strongest bonds but that may not be the case

 

[Wiebke]

That’s a great help thank you . I have a much better idea now. It’s so hard to tell who likes who as they are always grouped up together when I go in the room. Should I divide the girls first and let them establish their new groups before adding the boys? The good thing is I’ve never had any aggression from my girls but I always presume the older ones are the more dominant. I do hear the odd teeth chattering and rumble but it only lasts a second. I think I will spend next weekend watching them. Whenever I’m in the room they just see me as food so hang out at the bars squeaking at me. Hoping for more food. The reason I was dividing by age is that the four younger girls have been there a year where is the other have been together 2 to 4 years. The oldest two are 4 and my first ones. I therefore presumed the older ones may have the strongest bonds but that may not be the case

Try to introduce the less dominant boar with the group on neutral ground and then observe which sows get on well with him and which not. Take your cues from that. You can split by age as the younger sows will be generally lower ranking. The biggest hurdle is always acceptance by the most dominant sow.

Stop whenever tensions remain high and try again next day - if things are going well, then the second meet should be much calmer if not, tensions will be back within a matter of minutes and the bonding will have failed. Once piggies have made up their mind that they do not suit, then you have had. In a group, the lower ranking sows will close ranks behind their leader. Please take your time and if you have any concerns, rather leave the group in the bonding pen overnight than transferring into the cage too early. Take out any sows where acceptance is somewhat grudgingly given.

When I had to finally split my 11 strong Tribe in January 2014, there were two clear sub-groups (The dominant Peru Mafia and the more submissive Ginger Mob) and some odds and ends. The Peru Mafia family group with the dominant husboar went together and the ginger undergroup with their own mini-group leader got their own husboar (who promptly abandoned them for the love of his life, a lookalike of his who failed to settle with the ginger group; but that is another story). My ginger half-peru Tanni failed to accept any new boar but thankfully walked herself back into the other split group.

Please take the time to read our bonding guide with pictures of key behaviours and several videos.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

 

[Teresacholerton]

Thank you that’s really helpful. So you suggest trying my submissive boar with all the sows first to see who likes him. Removing any aggressive sows to try with the other one? If I’m really unlucky I may end of with three different groups from the sound of it. . I will start next Saturday morning so I can take the whole weekend observing them. I have been watching them for the last hour and the four youngest are definitely the submissive but it really hard to say who’s boss. There is one that keeps moving the younger ones out her way but she doesn’t do that to the older ones so I guess that means she a wanna be leader My submissive boar is really lovely natured so I’m hoping he will be excepted by the dominant sows and the dominant boy can go with the younger girls maybe. As you said I will just keep trying till I get it right and hope I can end up with two cages instead of 3 . At the end of the day I want happy pigs so will do whatever works.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you that’s really helpful. So you suggest trying my submissive boar with all the sows first to see who likes him. Removing any aggressive sows to try with the other one? If I’m really unlucky I may end of with three different groups from the sound of it. . I will start next Saturday morning so I can take the whole weekend observing them. I have been watching them for the last hour and the four youngest are definitely the submissive but it really hard to say who’s boss. There is one that keeps moving the younger ones out her way but she doesn’t do that to the older ones so I guess that means she a wanna be leader My submissive boar is really lovely natured so I’m hoping he will be excepted by the dominant sows and the dominant boy can go with the younger girls maybe. As you said I will just keep trying till I get it right and hope I can end up with two cages instead of 3 . At the end of the day I want happy pigs so will do whatever works.

You can start with the more dominant boar and see whether he takes first. The biggest stumpling block is your most dominance sow. Especially older dominant sows are not necessarily accepting of new boars. So she has to be your priority. The rest will be easier to bond. also look out for which sows are particularly submissive and accepting. They should also accept the more dominant boar.

It is basically one big evaluation game. There are no rights or wrongs; you always have to feel your way through this. You can also start with just your older split group - they are more likely to be your trickier customers so have got priority.

 

[Teresacholerton]

You can start with the more dominant boar and see whether he takes first. The biggest stumpling block is your most dominance sow. Especially older dominant sows are not necessarily accepting of new boars. So she has to be your priority. The rest will be easier to bond. also look out for which sows are particularly submissive and accepting. They should also accept the more dominant boar.

It is basically one big evaluation game. There are no rights or wrongs; you always have to feel your way through this. You can also start with just your older split group - they are more likely to be your trickier customers so have got priority.

Thank you

 

[flowerfairy]

What a fascinating thread. I look forward to updates.

 

[Teresacholerton]

Hi I

What a fascinating thread. I look forward to updates.

Hi I have decided to start today by splitting the boys and I have put one on each end of the girls cage, in a cage of their own. I am now spending an hour after work reading in their room so I can get a feel of who’s hanging out with which boy and which girls like which girls the most. Hopefully this will give me a clue as to who’s best to put with who when they meet face to face at the weekend.

So far my submissive boy seems to be attracting the most attention as he’s just grazing by the fence and poking his nose to say hello when a girl comes to see him. My dominant boy is rumbling and squeaking away at everyone who comes to say hello so he’s getting a lot less attention .

I’m really looking forward to seeing how they develop over this week and then properly meeting at the weekend.

They are great entertainment to watch

 

[Wiebke]

Hi I

Hi I have decided to start today by splitting the boys and I have put one on each end of the girls cage, in a cage of their own. I am now spending an hour after work reading in their room so I can get a feel of who’s hanging out with which boy and which girls like which girls the most. Hopefully this will give me a clue as to who’s best to put with who when they meet face to face at the weekend.

So far my submissive boy seems to be attracting the most attention as he’s just grazing by the fence and poking his nose to say hello when a girl comes to see him. My dominant boy is rumbling and squeaking away at everyone who comes to say hello so he’s getting a lot less attention .

I’m really looking forward to seeing how they develop over this week and then properly meeting at the weekend.

They are great entertainment to watch

Your more dominant boy is rather overexcited. Giving the boys some time to get to know the girls is a good start and it is a good way to work out who would go best with who. The undersows in a group are usually much more accepting of a humpy boar and a boar that is not oversexed and can keep his knees locked during bonding is usually better for dominant or fear-aggressive sows.

 

[Teresacholerton]

Pll loo

Your more dominant boy is rather overexcited. Giving the boys some time to get to know the girls is a good start and it is a good way to work out who would go best with who. The undersows in a group are usually much more accepting of a humpy boar and a boar that is not oversexed and can keep his knees locked during bonding is usually better for dominant or fear-aggressive sows.

Thank you

 

[Teresacholerton]

Hi all well day 1 is coming to an end. I am not sure if I have chosen the right groups but I found a lot of the girls were quite mean to my submissive boar so we ended up with a group of 4 and 7. The dominant females all seemed really uninterested in the dominant boar and after a few hours they all cuddled up and went to sleep. Everyone seemed really happy so I cleaned all the cages and put them back. I’ve just been to check and everything has changed. One of the youngest girls is being really mean to the submissive boar. Humping and chasing him. In the dominant cage the boar is just chasing and humping all the girls and the noise of squeaking is intense. Do you think I can leave them like this overnight? Is it just normal structuring of dominance? Will they just sought themselves out or should I worry. No blood drawn just lots of humping, rumple struts and squeaking

 

[Wiebke]

Hi all well day 1 is coming to an end. I am not sure if I have chosen the right groups but I found a lot of the girls were quite mean to my submissive boar so we ended up with a group of 4 and 7. The dominant females all seemed really uninterested in the dominant boar and after a few hours they all cuddled up and went to sleep. Everyone seemed really happy so I cleaned all the cages and put them back. I’ve just been to check and everything has changed. One of the youngest girls is being really mean to the submissive boar. Humping and chasing him. In the dominant cage the boar is just chasing and humping all the girls and the noise of squeaking is intense. Do you think I can leave them like this overnight? Is it just normal structuring of dominance? Will they just sought themselves out or should I worry. No blood drawn just lots of humping, rumple struts and squeaking

Hi!

PLEASE be aware that 'meanness', i.e. dominance behaviour is a very necessary part of forming a group. Your submissive boar is firmly put at the bottom of the hierarchy with the strongest behaviour coming from the sow classed just above (who also sounds like she may be coming into season). In the other cage, you get opposite with your dominant boar asserting his authority and the attendant sow drama.

PLEASE keep them in their bonding pens and allow them to get on with establishing a working hierarchy and group. Cross gender bonding is full of drama and this stage of the bonding is never nice but you have to sit it out; the more you interfere, the more you hinder your piggies from working through the bonding protocol.

Leave them in the pens overnight or separate and restart tomorrow. If there is an issue with the chasing sow, you may want to see whether she is better off in the other group in a few days. Things will have hopefully settled down more by tomorrow or if you resume, should be calmer in a good bonding.

 

[Teresacholerton]

Hi!

PLEASE be aware that 'meanness', i.e. dominance behaviour is a very necessary part of forming a group. Your submissive boar is firmly put at the bottom of the hierarchy with the strongest behaviour coming from the sow classed just above (who also sounds like she may be coming into season). In the other cage, you get opposite with your dominant boar asserting his authority and the attendant sow drama.

PLEASE keep them in their bonding pens and allow them to get on with establishing a working hierarchy and group. Cross gender bonding is full of drama and this stage of the bonding is never nice but you have to sit it out; the more you interfere, the more you hinder your piggies from working through the bonding protocol.

Leave them in the pens overnight or separate and restart tomorrow. If there is an issue with the chasing sow, you may want to see whether she is better off in the other group in a few days. Things will have hopefully settled down more by tomorrow or if you resume, should be calmer in a good bonding.

I have left them all together in their new groups because as you said it all seems to be a dominance issue rather then dislike so no fighting just humping and rumbling. Fingers crossed they will have settled a bit by the morning.

 

[Wiebke]

All the best!

The issue is that you have to constantly assess and reassess how things are going according to the stage of the bonding process they are in. The less you have to interfere, the better. But as the dynamics between the individuals are always different and unique, there is often more than one possible option on how to proceed, especially the more experienced you are in reading body and interactive language and getting the hang of the differences in cross gender bonding.

 

[Teresacholerton]

Hi I have now got a group of three ( submissive boy with two one year old girls)as I felt the older girl wasn’t interested in eating this morning so I popped her back in with the others and she seems happier. The dominant boy now has 7 girls to annoy but they are tolerating him so far. The joke is on me through as I felt as a group of 9 they needed more space so I put the three back in the boys cage of 6 by 2 and 1/2 c and c and the c and the 9 have 18 by 2! So I probably should have left them as they were . Do you think mixed sex groups are happier?

 

[Wiebke]

Hi I have now got a group of three ( submissive boy with two one year old girls)as I felt the older girl wasn’t interested in eating this morning so I popped her back in with the others and she seems happier. The dominant boy now has 7 girls to annoy but they are tolerating him so far. The joke is on me through as I felt as a group of 9 they needed more space so I put the three back in the boys cage of 6 by 2 and 1/2 c and c and the c and the 9 have 18 by 2! So I probably should have left them as they were . Do you think mixed sex groups are happier?

Piggies can surprise you, can't they? That is why approaching this all with an open mind and going with the flow will allow you to work out the best solution by giving your piggies the choice as to who each of them wants to be with. The process can be somewhat nerve-wracking but it is usually worth it. And your boys will be ever so happy, having reached the pinnacle for a boar career!

As long as your two groupings are happy in themselves, I would recommend that you stop worrying and second-guessing yourself. You have given all your piggies the opportunity to make their own choices - that is a very special gift. Now go and enjoy the ride while they settle down over the next 2 weeks. Brace for some big drama during the first seasons as the excess of pheromones and emotions during the mating will serve to bond your boys more tightly with their wives. Keep in mind that groups are dynamic and not a static concepts so they will develop over the coming years.
When Sows Experience A Strong Season (videos)

Personally, I love my mixed gender groups and pairings; they are generally happier living the way they are socially wired to in my own opinion. I currently have got 9 'husboars' aged 1-7 years of age, living with 1-2 sows each; but have had a string of them over the years from pairs to my Hywel having 13 wives at the height of life back in 2013, to several medium groups. I would have more boys but I have some boar-resistant sow pairs, too - and not for lack of trying!

 

[Teresacholerton]

thank you that has made me feel better. I always felt that my two boys were happy together but frustrated. I guess I feel bad that the two girls aren’t with their friends but at the same time I think they found the dominant boy a bit frightening. I was half tempted tempered to go out and get another girl for my submissive so all the girls could stay together but I’m going to give them a chance as they are. Interestingly it’s my dominant sows that are coping with him the best. Probably because he picks on them the least.

Thank you so much for all your advice and help. It has made the whole process so much easier, having someone to ask for help

 

[Wiebke]

thank you that has made me feel better. I always felt that my two boys were happy together but frustrated. I guess I feel bad that the two girls aren’t with their friends but at the same time I think they found the dominant boy a bit frightening. I was half tempted tempered to go out and get another girl for my submissive so all the girls could stay together but I’m going to give them a chance as they are. Interestingly it’s my dominant sows that are coping with him the best. Probably because he picks on them the least.

Thank you so much for all your advice and help. It has made the whole process so much easier, having someone to ask for help

Your two youngest will be VERY happy having their own group and husboar as it has meant a huge rise in status for them. Don't be surprised if they never spare a second glance or more than just a quick hello to their ex-mates because they fully identify themselves as their own group now. It is actually a good sign that they are perfectly happy with how things have fallen out.

PS: It doesn't mean that your sows will never be able to live together again since they have split without a fall-out. I have had pensioner groups of sows (with their own elderly casanova) that had been living in different groups for 5 years after the split of my large Tribe that went back together with a minimum of fuss, still knowing where they stood with each other after all that time. And on occasion I had to do quite a bit of group shuffling in order to accommodate a piggy with social issues that would only accept companions they had been living with previously but not any new mates.

Glad that I could help you.