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Still Doing Soft Poos :(

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Poppy'sMum

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Dear old Blighty UK
I have posted before about Petal, so briefly she is 4 years old, post full hysterectomy 5 weeks ago, she was completely bunged up poo wise for about a week, then she has had very soft poos ever since :( I've tried everything, no veg, veg, she has been on Zantac since the op, to protect her gut, she only had antibiotics for a week after the op, now she is showing all the signs of IBS :( She is eating & drinking, the vet had her in last weekend to give her subcut fluids as she has a lot of bladder sludge since the op, she was already a bladder pig before all this, her womb became infected which is why she had her hysterectomy. Since last weekend she is back on Emeprid as well as Cisapride & the Zantac. This all helped for 2 days when she did almost normal poos, now we are back to really soft ones again. I'm of a mind to just stop all the gut meds simply because I think she is being over stimulated & even try Imodium & Dioralyte instead. Not sure if this is a good idea but I'm almost to the point that nothing is going to sort this out anymore :( Has anyone used Imodium & if so dosage would be great, a pm will do. I just don't know what I am doing wrong anymore :(
 
Thank you :( My vet is away in America for a week now, so I just have all these meds to give her & they aren't helping. To be honest I just don't know what to do next. It isn't that bad she needs an emergency vet, but she clearly shouldn't be doing poos like she is :( I wonder if I should stop all her meds except pain relief & just give her hay & pellets?
 
Hi, If it were my piggy I would try giving her a natural diet of some fresh grass, a few pellets & lots of hay to let her tum settle. Try & keep the diet constant for a while & I would use a probiotic too. Introduce other green foods & veg slowly, a small piece of one type at a time after about 5 days or so & build it up to a selection gradually. Don't over do the veg so she's not too full to eat a good quantity of hay every day. It could be that the meds are a bit heavy duty & speeding things through to fast ,but you really need some vet advice on it before stopping or reducing them. Sounds like she's been through an awfull lot bless her.
 
Hi, If it were my piggy I would try giving her a natural diet of some fresh grass, a few pellets & lots of hay to let her tum settle. Try & keep the diet constant for a while & I would use a probiotic too. Introduce other green foods & veg slowly, a small piece of one type at a time after about 5 days or so & build it up to a selection gradually. Don't over do the veg so she's not too full to eat a good quantity of hay every day. It could be that the meds are a bit heavy duty & speeding things through to fast ,but you really need some vet advice on it before stopping or reducing them. Sounds like she's been through an awfull lot bless her.
Thank you. this is exactly what I have done tonight :) I have given her a little bit of fresh grass, washed it well & she is currently tucking into a load of hay & pellets. Things are not worse or better right now, but her soft poos look darker. I am tempted not to give her anymore gut meds tonight as she is eating really well & see how things are in the morning. what do you think?
 
If her poo is turning the normal dark brown colour then that's a good sign. See what it is like in the morning as it will take a while to form again properly. May be a few days. Sometimes it won't form without probiotic help. I can't advise with the meds unfortunately. Its good that everything is moving through though & it needs to stay that way so just keep a watch for now :)
 
I would also recommend to take her off any veg to help her guts to settle down. Have you tried fibreplex to help the guts stabilise?

I would not recommend immodium. You will need to see with the gut stimulants etc. how well she reacts to them and whether they are needed. She's been on them for a goodly while now. I am very sorry that Petal has such a rough ride!

It is likely rather a bit likely to be trial and error for you - and constant adjustment to find out what works for her; the same goes with slowly re-introducing veg one by one and finding out which veg or herbs, how much or little she is OK with once things have hopefully stabilised again.

Darker poos are a good sign. Badly digested cowpads are usually much lighter in colour. ;)
 
I say that Wiebke then she has done a tiny bit of light coloured poo again :( She is eating very well, loads of hay & some pellets too. We tried Fibreplex & Protexin for rabbits & it didn't help. I'm trying to remove everything except hay & pellets & her Metacam (For her inflamed bladder & sludge). She has sufficient pain relief & I have Tramodol to hand as well. Do I still need to give the gut stimulants or do you think I should leave them tonight to see if that helps? If she wasn't eating I would have to give them, but as she is eating normally apart from no veg, does she actually still need them ?
 
Awww poor piggie! Dark poos are a good sign. Give her lots of dried things like herb forage and lots and lots of hay! Good luck and keep us updated
 
So this morning they are even more soft & are lighter again :( I'm giving her Critical Care, Fibreplex & Metacam, that's all. No more grass or any veg at all since yesterday & it is still so soft. I'm going to give her some Dioralyte as soon as hubby brings some back from the shops. I really don't know what else I can do :( She is still eating hay, pellets and tearing up paper & eating it.
 
Hope she feels better soon, they are such a worry. I am home from Newcastle tonight & it can't come fast enough as Rodney has decided not to eat today. Vets in the morning after not getting in til 10pm.

It's exhausting isn't it. It's great she is eating well, sending lots of love xx
 
Oh no I am sorry :( Yes I must say this is as bad as having a poorly child, it's the same feeling that's for sure. Hope he is ok x
 
It can be very emotional draining because they are your children in many way - you are as responsible for their wellbeing as you are for your child's.
I am tagging @Pebble for you. She is our medications specialist when it comes to side effects and long term use etc.
 
:( so sorry you're still going through all this with poor Petal. You're doing an amazing job for her, I really hope you can get to the bottom of it soon x
 
I spoke at length to @Poppy'sMum last week on the phone and am sorry to hear that Petal is no better.
For info: The faecal samples were negative for all the usual suspects.....but logged a low level of the Saccharomyces gutulatus that the other two girlies have had but that the vet didn't think merited a course of anti-fungal atm owing to the low level.


I understand how worrying and draining this is for you...but I think you are placing too much focus on trying to stop the cowpatty poos at the moment ....Petal has gone through a tremendous op for an infected womb......she was bunged up and now her gut is doing the reverse.
It can take weeks for a guinea pig gut to stabilise again properly after an event of this nature
.

I realise you are also worried because your vet is away for a week...but I don;t think you should be self-medicating or going against the vet's advice atm. As you say yourself, it is not an emergency and apart from the poo consistency she is still doing fine in herself (?...or is there other changes in behaviour etc?)
Could you please clarify - apart from the cowpatty poos is she still eating/drinking/maintaining weight etc and healthy?


The most important thing is to carry on with the vet's recommendations and to monitor her for dehydration (or if she develops fulminant diarrhoea ie fluid-like in which case that would be am emergency). As the fecal result were negative for "the usual suspects" then the cowpatty poos are more likely evidence that the gut is not pushing the contents along in a normal smooth and rhythmical manner...but instead the gut muscle is spasming and, in the case of diarrhoea, is pushing the feacal matter out too quickly and before the hind gut has had a chance to absorb the water content..The gut meds help to restore that balance.....although it may be that you need to stop the cisapride which acts on the hind gut...but i think you should discuss with a vet. When my Ginger used to get loose poo "episodes" we withdrew all veg and my vet put him on a low level course of zantac (not the rest of the gut meds) at 2mg/kg for 5 days to help stabilise things....it took up to a week (and he had not had a major op/gut stasis etc like Petal has had)

ON NO ACCOUNT USE IMMODIUM - The best option to help firm up poos in animals is kaolin. Discuss with your vet when they return whether it is worth trying Protexin Pro-kolin for dogs However be advised that whilst it contains kaolin, the probioitics in this product are designed to support the flora in a carniverous gut ...so your vet might feel this particular product is a bit risky and suggest an alternative source of kaolin (although I know of a couple of guinea pigs with cowpatty poos that have been given this and made a full recovery with no ill effects). i am also thinking that the differing porobioitics could help make the gut less favourable for the Saccharomyces gutulatus

(FYI - Here is a paediatric product I have just found....but I have no idea what type of dose should be used...also I'm concerned about the other ingredients.....but worthwhile pointing it out to your vet if they don;t agree with the Protexin product. Personally I think the Protexin is less risky than the paediatric suspension
http://www.allcures.com/Medicines/Child-Care-68900/CARE-100ml-894675-Leaflet.htm)

WHY DIAROLYTE? Unless Petal is dehydrated (in which case keep syringing water) it can actually cause more problems in the gut than it solves owing to the ionic content. I do not give diarolyte to my pigs unless the vet has approved it as a support measure for their particular condition

OTHER THINGS TO DISCUSS WITH A VET ON THEIR RETURN:
1) You could try replacing or supplementing the metacam with tramadol (again in discussion with your vet). It provides the pain relief that metacam does...but not the anti=inflammatory action ref the bladder. However as an opiate tramadol may help slow don the gut (assuming the cowpats are because the gut is moving too quickly...although I'm not sure that this is the real problem)

2) I would strongly suggest another sample - collect lots of cowpats and specifically ask for giardia PCR test as opposed to microsocopy. Last time we had a pig on the forum with this type of chronic issue they were finally diagnosed with giardia (and given metronidazole antibioitic to get rid of it). In the human gut Giardia infection is extremely difficult to diagnose by microscopy as it comes down the gut periodically in showers.....so microscopic diagnosis is a bit hit and miss whereas a PCR test will identify Giardia DNA fragments and provide a more confident result.

3) If the test results are still negative (except for gutulatus) I would then discuss a course of antifungal. Petal may have lower levels...but after everything she has been through this may be enough to cause the problems you experienced with your other girls that had much higher levels.

Chin up and hugs Hun.....this is proving a bit of a challenge for all concerned and clearly it's not an "overnight fix"...However, on the bright side, it is not currently life-threatening and Petal's condition can be supported (with rehydration if necessary) until you find out exactly what the real problem (assuming it isn't just a spasming gut)

Ring me anytime if you're worried
xxxxx
 
I spoke at length to @Poppy'sMum last week on the phone and am sorry to hear that Petal is no better.
For info: The faecal samples were negative for all the usual suspects.....but logged a low level of the Saccharomyces gutulatus that the other two girlies have had but that the vet didn't think merited a course of anti-fungal atm owing to the low level.


I understand how worrying and draining this is for you...but I think you are placing too much focus on trying to stop the cowpatty poos at the moment ....Petal has gone through a tremendous op for an infected womb......she was bunged up and now her gut is doing the reverse.
It can take weeks for a guinea pig gut to stabilise again properly after an event of this nature.

I realise you are also worried because your vet is away for a week...but I don;t think you should be self-medicating or going against the vet's advice atm. As you say yourself, it is not an emergency and apart from the poo consistency she is still doing fine in herself (?...or is there other changes in behaviour etc?)
Could you please clarify - apart from the cowpatty poos is she still eating/drinking/maintaining weight etc and healthy?


The most important thing is to carry on with the vet's recommendations and to monitor her for dehydration (or if she develops fulminant diarrhoea ie fluid-like in which case that would be am emergency). As the fecal result were negative for "the usual suspects" then the cowpatty poos are more likely evidence that the gut is not pushing the contents along in a normal [you]smooth and rhythmical manner[/you]...but instead the gut muscle is spasming and, in the case of diarrhoea, is pushing the feacal matter out too quickly and before the hind gut has had a chance to absorb the water content..The gut meds help to restore that balance.....although it may be that you need to stop the cisapride which acts on the hind gut...but i think you should discuss with a vet. When my Ginger used to get loose poo "episodes" we withdrew all veg and my vet put him on a low level course of zantac (not the rest of the gut meds) at 2mg/kg for 5 days to help stabilise things....it took up to a week (and he had not had a major op/gut stasis etc like Petal has had)

ON NO ACCOUNT USE IMMODIUM - The best option to help firm up poos in animals is kaolin. Discuss with your vet when they return whether it is worth trying Protexin Pro-kolin for dogs However be advised that whilst it contains kaolin, the probioitics in this product are designed to support the flora in a carniverous gut ...so your vet might feel this particular product is a bit risky and suggest an alternative source of kaolin (although I know of a couple of guinea pigs with cowpatty poos that have been given this and made a full recovery with no ill effects). i am also thinking that the differing porobioitics could help make the gut less favourable for the Saccharomyces gutulatus

(FYI - Here is a paediatric product I have just found....but I have no idea what type of dose should be used...also I'm concerned about the other ingredients.....but worthwhile pointing it out to your vet if they don;t agree with the Protexin product. Personally I think the Protexin is less risky than the paediatric suspension
http://www.allcures.com/Medicines/Child-Care-68900/CARE-100ml-894675-Leaflet.htm)

WHY DIAROLYTE? Unless Petal is dehydrated (in which case keep syringing water) it can actually cause more problems in the gut than it solves owing to the ionic content. I do not give diarolyte to my pigs unless the vet has approved it as a support measure for their particular condition

OTHER THINGS TO DISCUSS WITH A VET ON THEIR RETURN:
1) You could try replacing or supplementing the metacam with tramadol (again in discussion with your vet). It provides the pain relief that metacam does...but not the anti=inflammatory action ref the bladder. However as an opiate tramadol may help slow don the gut (assuming the cowpats are because the gut is moving too quickly...although I'm not sure that this is the real problem)

2) I would strongly suggest another sample - collect lots of cowpats and specifically ask for giardia PCR test as opposed to microsocopy. Last time we had a pig on the forum with this type of chronic issue they were finally diagnosed with giardia (and given metronidazole antibioitic to get rid of it). In the human gut Giardia infection is extremely difficult to diagnose by microscopy as it comes down the gut periodically in showers.....so microscopic diagnosis is a bit hit and miss whereas a PCR test will identify Giardia DNA fragments and provide a more confident result.

3) If the test results are still negative (except for gutulatus) I would then discuss a course of antifungal. Petal may have lower levels...but after everything she has been through this may be enough to cause the problems you experienced with your other girls that had much higher levels.

Chin up and hugs Hun.....this is proving a bit of a challenge for all concerned and clearly it's not an "overnight fix"...However, on the bright side, it is not currently life-threatening and Petal's condition can be supported (with rehydration if necessary) until you find out exactly what the real problem (assuming it isn't just a spasming gut)

Ring me anytime if you're worried
xxxxx

Thank you Pebble. Earlier she had quite wet poos, I was very worried, she hasn't eaten as much today either so I syringe fed her a little bit earlier, but not much. She was hunching up when going to toilet as well, so I have already given her some Tramodol, as she is on a low dose Metacam daily anyway. I will leave the Cisapride out for now. She definitely firmed up a little after the Emeprid, so I don't really want to stop that yet do I? She was also quite gassy earlier on too :( I am getting plenty of fluids into her at the moment too. She is on Timothy hay & Harrington;'s pellets, is that ok? I have been giving her Readigrass as well, although she's a bladder pig I just want her eating at the moment. I will bear that in mind when I can afford another fecal test done, at the moment I have hardly any funds left as you can imagine & don't get paid again until Friday :) xx
 
Has your vet told you to keep on with all 3 gut meds?
If so, then keep doing so for at least another 48hrs before considering dropping the cisapride. Don;t drop it tonight!
Carson's gassiness/bloat was only sorted when we added in cisapride to the existing emeprid and zantac (because cisapride works on the hind gut to expel the gas being generated in the gut by food that has already passed through from the stomach).

Meanwhile expect to keep Petal on a veg-free, "hay and pellet only" diet for at least 5 days before even expecting to see a change in poos.

Presumably your vet has authorised/prescribed the tramadol so that's OK....especially given she is still hunching etc so obviously metacam is not totally effective at pain management

Don;t worry about the Readigrass etc re Calcium atm......it's all dried fibre so will help keep the teeth ground down and mop up excess water in the gut.

Timothy Hay and Harringtons are fine.

However, given her gut is so sensitive, if after a week there is no improvement, you may like to consider adding
a) an alternative pellet such as Burgess....and
b) meadow hay (Dobbies if you can find it is good quality) rather than exclusively relying on Timothy hay

The most important thing at the moment (i'e' during this coming week) is not to keep changing her diet/meds......it will not help you identify what is causing the issues and any new additions could actually be counterproductive and prolong the time it takes the gut to re-stabilise and/or confuse your vet in deciding on next steps..

This is a case of holding your nerve....Stay strong Hun.... I know how stressful that can be with these sensitive little furries.
We are continuously worried that, because of their prey status, and the fact they can keel over quite quickly... that anything "abnormal" needs to be fixed within 48 hours.

I can re-assure you (having gone through the same worries myself on numerous occasions) that there is a big difference in a piggie having a "critical" or "life threatening" condition (end stage kidney/heart failure or pneumonia) compared to one with a problem(s) that needs to be sorted but has become a bit "chronic" or "grumbly".

Keep up the observations...be aware of a need to respond if circumstance change...but overall Petal is doing well and her current issues/state of health are not life-threatening.

Hugs...and wheeks from the Pebble piggies....
x
 
Hi @Pebble I've been to the vets today with her as she is doing much runnier poo :( I have asked for Flagyl anyway as it won't hurt her, so I have got some to give her. She is very gassy today :( She had a pain injection & he has actually given me syringes & a phial of it to give her after 6 hours if it doesn't seem enough. Not sure I will be able to do it, he showed me how but it's pretty scary! I am giving her small feeds every 2-3 hours whilst she sits on the massage mat & she is passing a lot of gas :( He said to keep up with all the gut meds, in fact the other 2 were more important than the Emeprid, so will carry on with them. She is very quiet after her injection & seems to be passing a lot of urine or water? She has only had a small nibble of hay & a few pellets earlier, her eating has definitely tailed off today :( Very worried about her now :(
 
Sorry to hear she is getting worse. The gut meds are the best option to get rid of the gas being generated. Keep them going at all costs...and keep syringe food and fluids going in. Was she classed as being dehydrated today? If not then keep off the diarolyte and just syringe water.....1-2ml every 4-5ml of critical care/food

What painkiller was she given in injectable form? If you are at all worried about giving an injection -then ring the vet and ask to give the tramadol instead as this should work perfectly well on gut pain (my vet prefers it to metacam for gut pain) Although I have been trained to do s.c. (sub-cutaneous) injections, I still prefer to take mine to the vets as it's less stressful for the pig than me trying to give it!

Given the poos have worsened in consistency overnight, I think it's good you've now got flagyl (metronidiazole). (However I would have preferred they had taken a poo sample first as samples only give reliable results if there has been no antibiotic administration for at least 14 days prior. )

I share your worries given recent developments.....but think you have done everything you can and suggest you keep plodding on with the meds and syringe feeding. If there is no improvement tomorrow - ring and talk to the vet about Pro-kolin. Be advised however that this med is just attacking the symptoms and not the cause.

Hugs - I'm here if you want to chat
x
 
If its of any help at all, one of the best & efficient ways I know of to repopulate the gut is, if you have access to some fresh poo from a healthy piggy, mash a couple of poos in to the food at every feed for the first day & then at least three times a day after that. Just get down as much as you can. Hang on in there Petal xx
 
Potassium citrate (I buy Cymaclear) helps bladder sludge I used to give my 1kg piggy 0.2, and Infacol helps digestive system clear gas between 0.1 and 0.2. Cymaclear is harder to get but Infacol is available in chemists it's babies gripe meds.
 
Just want to clarify that Infacol and Gripe water are not the same. Infacol makes the gas form one big bubble and many vets don't recommend it due to the risk of gut torsion, especially if the pig is dehydrated. Gripe water on the other hand disperses the gas bubbles.
 
@helen105281 I've had an awful few days but she seems to be pulling through :) After I got her home from the vets on Monday she had a reaction to the painkiller he gave her. She was not moving, just sitting hunched up eyes glazed it was very scary. Anyway her poos got worse, I picked her up & clear liquid ran out of her bottom. Fluid was dripping out of her :( I rushed her back to the vets & he kept her in. They gave her fluids by injection, there's no way I could have got enough in as it was coming out so fast. She was kept in until yesterday & I picked her up tea time & she was very quiet but more aware of her surroundings. I kept her separate from my other 2 & popped a heat pad in with her. She is on the Flagyl, Cisapride & down to a half dose of the Zantac. He gave me the same stuff they had been feeding her, something called Emeraid for herbivores. It isn't cheap but I only have to give her feeds of it 3 times a day, much less than Critical Care because it is very high energy food. She loves it. Today she has been in with the other 2, except when it was time for pellets as I don't want her eating anything else but Emeraid & hay right now. She has eaten lots of hay today. The Timothy hay must be a different cut as it is very stalky, with lots of seeded bits which they treat like piggy chocolate bars :) I don't like stuffing her box with it though in case of eye pokes. I have about 2 days left of the Emeraid so not sure whether to go onto Critical Care after that or what. I'm worried anything else will upset her tummy. In addition to the meds I have been giving her dried Shepherd's Purse & ASAP powder from the Galen's Garden. Belinda there replied & sent me a lovely email with some very interesting facts & I am sure the ASAP has helped too :) She has been doing normal shaped poos! Thanks for asking after her, I have been so busy it's the first chance I've had to properly update the thread & at the moment I don't want to chance my luck by saying she is definitely better as it's still early days yet, but I am a little more hopeful now :)
 
Sounds like a nightmare few days, just shows how serious something like this can be. Glad the ASAP has helped. I too have ordered some after it was recommended the other day as it is good to have in the medicine box. Have ordered Shepherd's purse too. Keeping everything crossed for her.
 
Poor you! You must be so happy that Poppy's poos are stabilising again and that she has got her appetite back!
 
Thanks Wiebke, it's Petal who's ill, I know it's confusing all these names :) Poppy was my little oldie Rex who I lost to gut torsion when she was 7 :( She was the reason I joined the forum. Daisy in my avatar pic <<<<<<<<<<< is Petal's daughter, another reason why I have to fight for her, they love each other dearly :) I am guessing veg are an absolute no-no now so she won't be having any for a few weeks. Would you let her have pellets again at the weekend do you think? My vet is back Monday & Petal has her Cartrophen jab booked so I will see her then.
 
I have no advice just wanted to send healing vibes. x
 
I have no advice just wanted to send healing vibes. x
We'll take those, thank you :) I think we're a long way from normal as yet but I am sure she wouldn't have survived if I hadn't taken her straight to the vet on Monday & straight back after her reaction to the injection x
 
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