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Teeth problem

Lucy2103

Lucy2103

Junior Guinea Pig
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Noticed guinea pig was doing a strange movement with head on one side when eating like something was wrong. Not eating as much hay. Dropping nugs out of mouth but still eating some.Took to the vet and they said one of the back teeth are starting to grow over the tongue. He said he'd usually see a lot of food in their mouth but there wasnt any which is a sign shes not eating much. Weight was about 850. They said to give metacam once a day, and syringe feed twice a day with nugs and water to get weight up before filing tooth. He said to see her in a week to put her under anaesthetic to file tooth. She is 5 in June so not a young girl. When I was a child we took our guinea pig with similar issue to a guinea pig expert who was actually recommended by a vet at the time. They didn't use anaesthetic. They put a device in the guinea pigs mouth to open it and clipped the bad tooth, guinea pig was fine after this and eating normally. The vet said this procedure cannot be done without anesthetic. I know vets won't do this but what is the reason? Is this something another expert could do that isnt a vet? I'd just like to have some feedback on what you think to this vets advice please and if this is the approach we should take. Also any tips of feeding as we have the wriggliest girl who is nearly impossible to towel wrap and gets very distressed.
We are in Worcestershire.
Thank you.
 
I’m so sorry you are in this position. I took my boy Pebble to the vets with this exact problem. He had his teeth filed on Friday. We are still syringe feeding.

Is your girl still losing weight? You will need to weigh her every morning and if she loses weight you will need syringe feed more that day. I don’t think the advice to feed twice a day will be enough. Pebble had to wait a week between his first appointment to the operation and he lost 150g even though I was feeding 5 times a day. A good idea was that my vet also prescribed a gut stimulant to make sure they don’t go into gut stasis.

Here is the feeding guide to help you.

All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

Good luck.
 
I’m sorry to hear this.

Being told to feed just twice a day is not likely to be enough.

If she is not eating hay and is losing weight then she needs to be fed considerably more - she needs to have at least 60ml of syringe feeding per day. Depending on how much she needs per feed, but it’s usually around 10-15ml per feed, so you are looking at at least 4-6 feeds per day.
You feed as much as is necessary to stop further weight loss - you need to weigh her each morning and if she has lost weight from the day before then she needs to be fed even more l:
Syringe feeding is to stop further weight loss, keep the gut moving and stabilise a poorly piggy, it won’t necessarily make her gain weight.
Weight gain can take weeks to occur and usually only starts to happen once they are feeling better and eating hay independently again. Also has to be considered that at her age, making them gain weight is rather hard - a lot of older piggies who lose weight through illness never go back up in weight by much, they tend to maintain post-illness at a new lower normal.

I am unsure if there has been any change again but there was a change in the veterinary regulations a while back which meant conscious dentals could no longer be done due to welfare concerns. So yes being told your piggy needs an anesthetic is right.

No there is nobody other than a vet who can do the dental work - by law only a qualified vet to carry out treatment. Even then you need a very knowledgeable and experienced dental vet so as to ensure things are done properly and not made worse

I hope she is ok

Weight and Weight Loss Explained: BMI, Weighing, Poos and Feeding Support Levels
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m sorry to hear this.

Being told to feed just twice a day is not likely to be enough.

If she is not eating hay and is losing weight then she needs to be fed considerably more - she needs to have at least 60ml of syringe feeding per day. Depending on how much she needs per feed, but it’s usually around 10-15ml per feed, so you are looking at at least 4-6 feeds per day.
You feed as much as is necessary to stop further weight loss - you need to weigh her each morning and if she has lost weight from the day before then she needs to be fed even more l:
Syringe feeding is to stop further weight loss, keep the gut moving and stabilise a poorly piggy, it won’t necessarily make her gain weight.
Weight gain can take weeks to occur and usually only starts to happen once they are feeling better and eating hay independently again. Also has to be considered that at her age, making them gain weight is rather hard - a lot of older piggies who lose weight through illness never go back up in weight by much, they tend to maintain post-illness at a new lower normal.

I am unsure if there has been any change again but there was a change in the veterinary regulations a while back which meant conscious dentals could no longer be done due to welfare concerns. So yes being told your piggy needs an anesthetic is right.

No there is nobody other than a vet who can do the dental work - by law only a qualified vet to carry out treatment. Even then you need a very knowledgeable and experienced dental vet so as to ensure things are done properly and not made worse

I hope she is ok

Weight and Weight Loss Explained: BMI, Weighing, Poos and Feeding Support Levels
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for that reply! She's only nibbling at the hay but is accepting some lettuce. No where near her normal amount. Would critical care be a good option?
Thank you
 
Yes she absolutely must be syringe fed critical care straight away (mushed pellets is the emergency alternative).. Hay is 75-80% of the daily food intake, veg just 10% (plus veg is not the thing their gut needs to keep functioning properly) so by only nibbling at hay means she has likely lost a significant proportion of daily food intake. This will quickly result in weight loss and loss of gut function.
Please make sure you weigh her yourself every morning so you can ensure you are feeding enough critical care to keep her stable every day - she needs at least 60ml of feed per day. weight loss day on day means she needs to be fed more critical care

I’ve added guides in below which explain everything further

Weight and Weight Loss Explained: BMI, Weighing, Poos and Feeding Support Levels
All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures
How to Improvise Feeding Support in an Emergency
 
Piggies&buns said:
Yes she absolutely must be syringe fed critical care straight away (mushed pellets is the emergency alternative).. Hay is 75-80% of the daily food intake, veg just 10% (plus veg is not the thing their gut needs to keep functioning properly) so by only nibbling at hay means she has likely lost a significant proportion of daily food intake. This will quickly result in weight loss and loss of gut function.
Please make sure you weigh her yourself every morning so you can ensure you are feeding enough critical care to keep her stable every day - she needs at least 60ml of feed per day. weight loss day on day means she needs to be fed more critical care

I’ve added guides in below which explain everything further

Weight and Weight Loss Explained: BMI, Weighing, Poos and Feeding Support Levels
All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures
How to Improvise Feeding Support in an Emergency
Click to expand...
Thank you! The vet didn't even reccomended critical care, just to mash pellets up twice a day and syringe feed. We've just bought the oxbow critical care, hope that's good? Are you aware of any exotic vets in the Midlands/Warwickshire/Worcestershire that specialise in guinea pigs and tooth issues? Or where is best to post to find someone? Our vet knows a lot about guinea pigs but he is not an exotics vet.
Also should I be worried about a nearly 5 year old female going under anaesthetic? Is there a high chance she may not wake up? Our girls have always been little, not underweight, just small, not like some of the big chunky pigs you see on the internet. She's around 860 with her weight. Can this be a reasonable weight for a nearly 5 year old?
Thank you!
 
Critical care is the thing to use. Mushed pellets can be used as the emergency alternative if you don’t have critical care at present or because piggy prefers the flavour of mushed pellets. Pellets have a lower fibre content than the critical care so cc is better for longer term syringe feeding to ensure a higher fibre intake.

How much a piggy needs is dependent on what the daily weight checks tell you.
Twice a day may be sufficient for a piggy who is in recovery and needs a small top up and is otherwise still eating enough hay for themselves. It is not likely to be enough for a piggy activity unwell and not eating (or only eating minimal) hay, and isn’t enough if weight is lost day on day.

Cat and rabbit clinic in Northampton is one of the best piggy dental vets in the country. People do travel from all over the country to use their services - you will see them mentioned a lot where dental issues come up.

There is a wide range of adult piggy weights - from 600-1600 can be perfectly normal. All weight does is tell you how much they are eating enough. To know whether she is a good size for herself, you have to check heft (bmi) - the guide I added in explains more but essentially you feel around their ribs to see how much rib you can feel (you want to feel rib but with a nice fat layer. Feel too much rib and they’re underweight; not be able to feel any rib and they’re overweight).
Older piggies tend to lose mass, become bony on the hip and weigh less than in their prime.
It can be much harder to put weight on older piggies and after a period of illness they don’t often go back to their pre-illness weight
 
Thank you! I'm just looking at that vets now. Is it the Northlands Veterinary Group, Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic... that's the only one that comes up when I type in Cat and Rabbit Clinic Northampton
 
Lucy2103 said:
Thank you! I'm just looking at that vets now. Is it the Northlands Veterinary Group, Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic... that's the only one that comes up when I type in Cat and Rabbit Clinic Northampton
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Yes, that’s the correct one.
Would 100% recommend them.

Sorry to read about your piggie.
 
Thank you! Are they more expensive than a normal vet as they are more specialised? Will they do something differently to what my current vet would do? My current vet has a particular interest in Guinea pigs/ is knowledgeable about that but he isn't an expert as such. He knows my guinea pigs and we have used him for the 5 years we've had them so I do trust him. Am I just costing myself more money by going to the one in Northampton or are they likely to do things differently? My main concern is the anaesthetic and dying from that. Would that make a difference which vet she goes to?
I just want what is best for my girl and if my local vet will do the exact same procedure I'd be inclined to stick with him. She's booked in for Tuesday but I just want to make the right decision. I'm very interested in finding out more about the Northampton clinic tomorrow though incase I feel they will be better.
Thank you
 
Lucy2103 said:
Thank you! Are they more expensive than a normal vet as they are more specialised? Will they do something differently to what my current vet would do? My current vet has a particular interest in Guinea pigs/ is knowledgeable about that but he isn't an expert as such. He knows my guinea pigs and we have used him for the 5 years we've had them so I do trust him. Am I just costing myself more money by going to the one in Northampton or are they likely to do things differently? My main concern is the anaesthetic and dying from that. Would that make a difference which vet she goes to?
I just want what is best for my girl and if my local vet will do the exact same procedure I'd be inclined to stick with him. She's booked in for Tuesday but I just want to make the right decision. I'm very interested in finding out more about the Northampton clinic tomorrow though incase I feel they will be better.
Thank you
Click to expand...

I’ve not used them myself but forum posts show that they can actually be quite a bit cheaper in some things.

Having a vet who is knowledgeable and experienced is what counts - if you have that in your current vet then you may feel happier to stay with them.
Vets don’t get trained extensively in piggy dental work , it only tends to happen when the vet takes a particular interest. Simon and Kim at cat and rabbit have that interest, are very knowledgeable and do more dental work than most vets will ever do.
You can always have a chat with them and see what they say
 
Lucy2103 said:
Thank you! Are they more expensive than a normal vet as they are more specialised? Will they do something differently to what my current vet would do? My current vet has a particular interest in Guinea pigs/ is knowledgeable about that but he isn't an expert as such. He knows my guinea pigs and we have used him for the 5 years we've had them so I do trust him. Am I just costing myself more money by going to the one in Northampton or are they likely to do things differently? My main concern is the anaesthetic and dying from that. Would that make a difference which vet she goes to?
I just want what is best for my girl and if my local vet will do the exact same procedure I'd be inclined to stick with him. She's booked in for Tuesday but I just want to make the right decision. I'm very interested in finding out more about the Northampton clinic tomorrow though incase I feel they will be better.
Thank you
Click to expand...
I am not sure how C&R care clinic costs would be compared to your usual vet.
As Piggies&buns says if you trust your usual vet, and they are knowledgeable then that’s already a big weight of your mind.

I would definitely ring C&R, and talk to them, the receptionists are really helpful.
( Just don’t call at 8am in the emergency rush!)

We previously had a foster pig, with potential teeth trouble.
The rescues usual vet, quoted for X-ray & anaesthetic with possible dental to follow at another appointment, but clearly not confident. ( it was an all animal rescue).
I finally persuaded them to let me take him to C&R who diagnosed & treated in the initial appointment for oral thrush, no extra costs, just appointment fee & medication.
 
My usual vet diagnosed a tooth abscess in my piggy but said they were not confident in operating even though they were largest vet hospital then. So they referred me to an exotic vet who quoted me over £1,000!

I went to Cat and Rabbit and they did the procedure for about £500. They are very good.

But you have to feel comfortable in your decision.

Last week I had a piggy have his teeth filed. This is at an exotic vets. The initial consultation was £200 including meds and the operation was £400 including meds. He is still not eating hay and still losing weight so it’s not a quick fix. Good luck whatever you decide.
 
This is the information I can see on my vets page even though we always use Adam.

Southcrest Veterinary Centre has had a long history of providing first-opinion veterinary care and advice for exotic pets. This interest had started with Jason Waine (now retired) and has now continued with Adam Lloyd-Lucas. Adam has been treating birds, reptiles and small mammals since qualifying in 1997. Our other vets have also developed their interest and skills for many of these pets as well.

Tooth conditions are a common reason to see many of our patients. Whether retained deciduous teeth, periodontal disease, caries, fractured teeth or poorly aligned teeth, we can advise accordingly. While tooth brushing, dental chews and dental foods can help to prevent problems, often we need to resort to a general anesthetic for appropriate dental treatments.
We have 2 dental machines within the practice for ultrasonic scaling and polishing teeth and a range of burrs, drills and other hand-held dental equipment for rasping and extracting teeth as needed.

Anasthesia
Safe anaesthesia is a priority at our practice. We are able to closely watch vital parameters with our anaesthetic monitors. These can detect changes in heart rate, oxygen and carbon dioxide levels and blood pressure. Our anaesthetic machines are equipped to deliver isoflurane and sevoflurane gas. Sevoflurane is particularly important for delivering safe anaesthesia to exotic pets, birds and small mammals. We have a mechanical ventilator for supporting reptiles and birds during surgical procedures.

We have a dedicated area for dental procedures. Our dental machines are equipped with scalers, polishers and drills to clean, polish and extract teeth. We are also able to take radiographs of individual teeth with our digital x ray plates.

From this read does this sound like they have the knowledge and resources for this? I would have thought so, just reading online is making me wonder if I should be going to a specialised place such as the one in Northampton.
 
I can’t make the system work this morning to allow me to move your comment on someone else’s old thread back to your own (I’ll try it again later) so for now I’ve copied and pasted it back below:

Lucy2103 said:

Thank you! I will take a read through all of that.
My piggy has perked up so much since the Critical care arrived Wednesday night. The Vet weighed her Tues evening and she was 880g apparently. Wednesday morning she was 862g. Thursday morning 840g. Friday morning 842. This morning 838. Not sure if 4g is much but seems the weight is maintaining now i hope as hasnt particularly changed for 3 mornings! Tuesday evening and Wednesday day we did mashed nuggets. Wednesday evening the critical care finally arrived from Amazon so have used that since then. Weve been doing feeds averagely around 5am/6am, 10/11am 2pm, 5/6pm, 10pm. So about 5 feeds a day. Is this ok?
I know its harder to put weight on than lose it but looking at our results it seems the weight has halted since starting the critical care unless it just took a couple of days for the inital syringed nuggets to get into her system and stop the weight loss. Will Critical care be the most calorific and best option at this stage? Are nuggets more calorific? Should we change one of the feeds a day to crushed nuggets for more calories or is critical care the best thing we can do. Tooth procedure is Tuesday. Vet booked the appointment a week later as he said he wanted her weight up before the procedure but she's lost about 40g since seeing him and is now remaining around the 840g mark. However she's so much better. Today she seems like her usual self, actually whistled for food with her piggy sister when she heard the fridge open this morning so overall much happier in herself and healthier. She was very lethargic Tuesday so if she'd had it done then I dont think it would have been good. If she remains around 40g lower since vet appointment but is so much healthier and happier in herself do you think that matters more than the 40g weightloss since seeing the vet?
I just want to do everything I can for her these last few days to get her in a good state before the procedure and anaesthetic. So to summarise my main questions...
1. Am i best sticking with critical care over any mashed nugget feeds?
2. I also have a pouch of recovery food given by the vet, I think the brand was select. Is this much different to critical care?
3. Is the 40g weightless since vet less significant to her much improved energy and overall happier appearance?
4. Anything else i can be doing to try and get the weight up?
Ive also ordered some Pro C to give. Should be arriving today.
Thank you again!
 
Critical care is higher fibre than nuggets so is therefore better in that respect.
Nuggets are perfectly fine to be used and are the emergency alternative where critical care isn’t available. Now you have the critical care there is no need to use mashed nuggets

The select food is the same as critical just by a different manufacturer.
Any one of the recovery feeds is fine to use

Weight loss isn’t considered weight loss until it is 50g or more. So at 40g She is still considered to be within normal fluctuation and therefore stable so you are feeding her enough.
Example: If she was losing, let’s say, 10g a day and that kept going day on day and then amounted to at least 50g then you would be looking at a continual downward trend and could then say she isn’t eating enough.

Pro-c is a probiotic which helps replace gut bacteria - it’s helpful where there are soft poops due to a gut imbalance or digestive upset (sometimes caused by antibiotics).
You aren’t reporting that so technically she doesn’t need it but it will not cause any problems for you to give it to her
 
Thank you for that! If I were to add an additional feed in, maybe leaving a couple of 2 hour gaps instead of 3 to get another feed in, would this be ok? Or is there such thing as over feeding critical care?
Good to know that 40g isn't considered weightloss. Also the vets weigh at 880 was in the evening, the next morning was the 862 so now down to 840 we may only be looking at a 22g difference.
Yes she's isn't on antibiotics so I know Pro C isn't particularly necessary, I just keep seeing people recommending it for sick pigs so bought some just incase. Her poos were very wet and unformed Tues and wed and have now become a lot more normal since the Critical care which is good! She's on 0.35 of metacam for her 880 weight taken at vet. Does this seem ok?
Typical that the pig who isn't ill was willingly licking the critical care yesterday 😅
 
If her weight is stable each day then she doesn’t technically need an extra feed. You can try her with it but if she is still eating some hay herself, you don’t want her to stop wanting to eat hay by giving extra feeds.

Metacam is prescribed on a sliding scale. It’s dosed not only according to their weight but also their clinical need. It also depends on whether she is on cat or dog version. Dog is three times stronger so they need less of it for a better effect.
So while 0.35 once a day of cat version may not be anywhere near enough for some conditions, it may be enough for others. If she is displaying signs of being in pain then you can discuss that with your vet.
 
Piggies&buns said:
If her weight is stable each day then she doesn’t technically need an extra feed. You can try her with it but if she is still eating some hay herself, you don’t want her to stop wanting to eat hay by giving extra feeds.

Metacam is prescribed on a sliding scale. It’s dosed not only according to their weight but also their clinical need. It also depends on whether she is on cat or dog version. Dog is three times stronger so they need less of it for a better effect.
So while 0.35 once a day of cat version may not be anywhere near enough for some conditions, it may be enough for others. If she is displaying signs of being in pain then you can discuss that with your vet.
Click to expand...
So she survived the anaesthetic. Teeth were filed today, both back and front. The back were overgrown he said, and the front were at an angle so he said he just did a small amount to straighten them up. She's showing more sighs of wanting to eat, she actually had some nuggets which she hasn't in a week but still not eating hay and minimal veg. He said we'd like need to continue syringe feeding for a couple of days. He's upped metacam to 0.5ml for 2 days then back to 0.35 after this. He said she's liking to have some discomfort from having them filed.
Does all of this sound normal? She's also still doing the strange head thing when she eats that he told us was because of her overgrown teeth but now they're done I can't understand why she's still doing that like she has food stuck. What is the usual time frame for them to start eating properly after this type of procedure and should I be worried that she's still not eating hay?
Thank you!
 
The front teeth being at an angle is an effect of the back being overgrown - the incisors are self sharpening and kept in check by the correct action of the molars so if the molars overgrow the front stop wearing properly as well.

Piggies with dental problems can lose their confidence in eating and take a while to get it back. Discomfort after dental work is common - so yes it can be entirely normal that they still won’t eat. You will have to continue syringe feeding until she starts to eat enough hay independently to maintain her weight again.
Some start eating again the same day, others can take quite a while longer (a couple of weeks) - so there is no timescale. All you can do is keep weight checks, syringe feeding and stay in touch with your vet if sh with your vet
 
Thank you for that clarification and for your help with all of this, its much appreciated!
 
I’m about 10 days ahead of you with my Pebble. He’s still not eating hay. He still sometimes does the head/mouth movement like something is stuck. I’ve tried 4 different types of hay, wetting the hay and crushing coriander on it, grass.

Since the op he has started to eat more and more other stuff. Try cutting her veggies into sticks. That really helped Pebble.

Good luck I hope she starts to eat soon.
 
weepweeps said:
I’m about 10 days ahead of you with my Pebble. He’s still not eating hay. He still sometimes does the head/mouth movement like something is stuck. I’ve tried 4 different types of hay, wetting the hay and crushing coriander on it, grass.

Since the op he has started to eat more and more other stuff. Try cutting her veggies into sticks. That really helped Pebble.

Good luck I hope she starts to eat soon.
Click to expand...
Oh bless, that's taking a little while then! She's currently having a good munch on some broccoli which she can never resist! And had some nuggets yesterday for the first time in a week. I really hope she'll bounce back soon 🙏
 
I really hope so too. Pebble has started to eat nuggets too. It’s just hay he won’t touch.
 
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