The thing about veg/herbs

[mikulinek]

Hi everyone,

I know a lot of people enjoy feeding their guinea pigs all manner of fresh veg and herbs and try to find a good balance and feed lots of different things in moderation.

I am not going to criticise anyone's feeding habbits or routines and certainly I used to try to feed our piggies all kinds of things too. However, I think a lot of people ask questions about all sorts of strange and wonderful veg/herbs and whether or not their piggies can eat it and it's led me to write this thread.

A lot of owners, wonderful owners, stick to the general principle of 80% hay, 10% fresh veg and 10% dry food for a piggy's diet. They then try to use/feed a good variety of different fresh veg to provide a balanced diet.

This is fair enough and pretty much what we used to do.

Recently though, after pondering the cause of all kinds of digestion issues in pigs, after speaking to other owners and to good vets and after observing out piggies, I've come to the conclusion that this may not be the best diet.

Wild cavies and, indeed, the wild ancestors of our piggies, would have fed on nothing but grasses. Perhaps the odd flower and varied leaves but, in the main, they would have eaten grass. This provides enough nutrition, fibre and vitamin C for any cavy.

Our pets obviously live on a mainly hay diet which doesn't have great amounts of vitamin C and that's why dried food was invented. I'm not at all a believer in dried food anymore. We give it as a treat to a couple of our (not to Biscuit who has a sensitive digestion nor too Caramel who is prone to putting on weight).

Dried food is extremely calorific and one of the main reasons behind piggy weight gain. Unless you buy top quality pellets in resealable bags (like Supreme Science) the vitamin C that you bought it for will degrade very quickly one you open it. In the end, you're essentially giving them junk food.

As for fresh veg, the European/North American vegetables that we feed our piggies is very unnatural. It contains all manner of nutrients which are not naturally occuring in Andean diets. Because of this, you'll notice just how much conflicting information there is out there about the types of veg and varieties and amounts that you can feed your piggies.

I'm sure that, in moderation, a little of these veggies are fine for you piggies and provide some much needed vitamin C. I won't criticise anyone for feeding fresh veg to their piggies. I would however, say that much it is very high in sugar, calcium or vitamin A which lead to diabetes, bladder and kidney issues and liver issues respectively.

I am of the opinion that veg and pellets should be used for treats and positive reinforcement/rewards. The majority of their diet, for me, should be grass-based.

With that in mind, we feed our piggies on unlimited timothy hay. Timothy hay is sweeter smelling/tasting than meadow hay (there's nothing nutritionally wrong with good quality meadow hay btw). This is mixed up with a good handful of readigrass each day. Readigrass is harvested earlier than hay and is therefore a little greener and has more vitamin C. It's not as coarse and hay and so will not wear down their teeth as quickly. Finally, they each get a big handful of grass everyday too. This provides them with plenty of vitamin C. If they could get outside everyday, they would. I don't see any reason behind limiting the amount of grass a piggy eats. Of course, this is fresh grass, not mown, cut or treated.

I'm sorry if this seems like a rant but I don't see the point in having endless lists of this suitable vegetable or that dangerous vegetable when, in truth, none of them are essential or even natural parts of a piggy's diet.

 

[Abi_nurse]

Dont be sorry at all. Its all opinion on what we all feed our piggies in the end. And its true that in the wild they would live on grasses etc. We all have our opinions and i do feed veg and a small amount of pellets daily. I dont think there is right or wrong thing to do. I suppose we could spend ages debating on best diets, but in the end we are all going to do different. Your points are valid, and I'm sure people will take them on board. When people compare our domestic pets to wild ones and feed accordingly, not so much with how your feeding your piggies, but more like feeding domestic dogs a BARF (bones and raw food diet) i really dont agree with it, more for the fact that it often does more harm than good. But again, all opinion.

Your piggies diet sounds good to me. So not need to be sorry.

x.

 

[mikulinek]

The obvious difference with dogs of course is that dogs have been domesticated for much longer. Much like horses, most dog breeds have evolved completed unnaturally. Like genetic engineering, it means most domestic dogs are far from their wild cousins by design (our design). Thus, they have much more challenging dietry requirements.

Guinea pigs have been domesticated for centuries but not as pets - rather as livestock. True domestication and genetic mutation began much later. In fact a guinea pig from before the First World War would be unrecognisable to many owners. Since the 60s, mass breeding has accelerated genetic mutation and reduced the average lifespan of domestic guinea pigs as a result. However, this is nowhere near the number of generations of mutation in domestic cats and dogs and so, evolutionarily speaking, their dietry needs have not changed dramatically.

Anyway, I could go for hours about this but I won't. This isn't meant to be a criticsim or even a guideline as such, just an observation

 

[Trish&Ewan]

Just been reading through the food posts as like to keep up to date with what to feed, and what not to feed and found your post really interesting. It all gets very confusing and from what I have read all veg has too much of something, calcium, vit A etc. so they really don't need veg or their dried food is that right? And I've not heard of readigrass? Is this instead of fresh grass?

 

[mikulinek]

Just been reading through the food posts as like to keep up to date with what to feed, and what not to feed and found your post really interesting. It all gets very confusing and from what I have read all veg has too much of something, calcium, vit A etc. so they really don't need veg or their dried food is that right? And I've not heard of readigrass? Is this instead of fresh grass?

Hi Trish and Ewan,

It's a contraversial topic really. My vet and I have discussed this at length (and I have watched our piggies and spoken to lots of owners). I'm not telling you what is or isn't right but it's my firm belief that yes, they definitely do not need dried food. We still give it as a treat to Caramel and the younger sows we just got get a few too because they will burn off their calories more quickly (they still zoom and popcorn like mad but our boys don't do that too much anymore).

By dried food, I mean specific guinea pig pellets. Meusli is not a good food for a lot of reasons but mostly for reasons of selective eating. If you have to get dried food because you still want to give it to them as a treat, I would recommend "Surpeme Science Selective Guinea Pig Pellets". Not only are they better quality and more nutritious but you can get smaller, resealable bags. This is important to keep as much of the vitamin C as possible. however, I am convinced that a guinea pig can live without dried food completely.

On the subject of readigrass. It's not a substitute for grass. It's grass that has been harvest a little earlier than hey so it's at an inbetween stage. This way you get everything. Hay provides plenty of nutrition other than vitamin C (it's quite poor in vitamin C). Good quality hay like top-nitch meadow hay or good timothy hay is very nutritious and also tasty. On top of that, hay is the absolute best thing for teeth. It's coarse and will grind their front teeth a little (although most piggies know very well how to gnaw down their front teeth on wood etc.). Piggies will keep mashed up hay in their mouths (all piggies should always have some food stored at the back of their mouths). This helps to keep their teeth worn down at the back.

Readigrass is fresher/younger and so has more vitamin C than hay but is not as coarse. It doesn't have as much viatmin C as fresh grass which should be fed daily but is coarser than fresh grass.

If you feed all three (hay mostly, a good portion of readigrass daily and a good portion of grass daily) then your piggy, in my opinion, is getting absolutely everything they need. In addition, you are feeding them a more natural diet in terms of their own evolution and bodies and you will avoid a lot of compicated blancing of unwanted vitamins, protein, calcium etc.

The only potential downside (although I am yet to see this with my piggies) is, as I'm sure you've noticed, that piggies get bored of some foods. I've watched ours get bored of all sorts of veg (when they used to get veg) but I've never known a piggy to get bored of fresh grass. If you mix in readigrass with your hay (especially timothy hay) then I can't see them ever getting bored. If you put grass all over their floor space/play area, they will hunt it out which is very enriching for them and this will never get boring.

I have to stress A - this is my opinion and I'm not criticising anyone else's feeding plans. B - I still feed occasional treats of (mostly) romain lettuce and (sometimes) dried food.

 

[Sherlocksmum]

How do you get enough fresh grass to feed daily?

 

[bsjlmb]

How do you get enough fresh grass to feed daily?

yes how do you - especially in winter when the grass isn't growing well

 

[mikulinek]

How do you get enough fresh grass to feed daily?

In winter it's not easy but there are several fields near where I live so I just go out everyday and grab a big handful.

We can't get ours outside as much as we would like because we don't have a garden but we try to get them out too.

In the winter, if there is literally no grass, I will revert to very small amounts of romain lettuce and cucumber. They're not great for vitamin C but better than hay and don't have any calcium or vitamin A content to be worried about. Readigrass helps to keep up the vitamin C levels too.

Really this only affects us for a couple of weeks every year. Obviously it might be harder where you live.

 

[sharonk]

So are you saying it has to be 'wild' grass as in not our garden grass? Our garden grass is treated four times a year but we checked with the company who does it and they say it's fine as long as the treatment has been done a week or two previously and there's been rain in between. They've had some of it, very lush and green it is, and they loved it! I think I'm going to cut veggies back a bit. Am very new at this and think I may be giving them too much? What do you do if they don't seem to eat masses of hay? I wouldn't say their diet is 80% hay but its always available in quantity and in various places in the cage but you can't 'make' them eat it can you? They have a shallow bowl of pellets but they don't eat loads because I do chuck some away daily.

 

[mikulinek]

So are you saying it has to be 'wild' grass as in not our garden grass? Our garden grass is treated four times a year but we checked with the company who does it and they say it's fine as long as the treatment has been done a week or two previously and there's been rain in between. They've had some of it, very lush and green it is, and they loved it! I think I'm going to cut veggies back a bit. Am very new at this and think I may be giving them too much? What do you do if they don't seem to eat masses of hay? I wouldn't say their diet is 80% hay but its always available in quantity and in various places in the cage but you can't 'make' them eat it can you? They have a shallow bowl of pellets but they don't eat loads because I do chuck some away daily.

No it doesn't have to be wild grass. As I say, we use the fields because we don't have a garden. I would check the treatment of your grass to be sure before feeding it to your piggies too.

You can't make your piggies eat hay but they should be eating plenty naturally, especially if it's good quality hay. If they're not eating much hay it will be because you are feeding too much fresh food/dried food or are fedding it to them too early in the day. If they know they're going to get plenty of fresh food, they won't eat their hay. Try feeding them grass (or veg if you are still feeding this) later in the day. In addition we do two things with both grass. One day we will will scatter it around their play area which is a lot of fun for them but also helps them stay in shape and keeps up their appetite. Another day, we mix it in with their hay. We always mix their readigrass with their hay too. That way they eat everything together.

I would also recommend getting timothy hay only because it's tastier for piggies than meadow hay.

As for pellets. Try feeding the odd few pellets by hand instead as a treat. That way they're a novelty and, more importantly, they're not just lying around losing all their nutritional value and flavour.

 

[christine]

I agree with this ,diet,the piggies love to forage amongst their hay and reddigrass. I do feed as much fresh grass as possible,and have stopped giivng dried food as some of the piggies were getting too fat.
The best value for money quality food is GOOD hay .I do feed some veggies ie. cucumber spring greens peppers and my piggies love ground elder. NOTthe elder tree.

 

[mikulinek]

I agree with this ,diet,the piggies love to forage amongst their hay and reddigrass. I do feed as much fresh grass as possible,and have stopped giivng dried food as some of the piggies were getting too fat.
The best value for money quality food is GOOD hay .I do feed some veggies ie. cucumber spring greens peppers and my piggies love ground elder. NOTthe elder tree.

Yeah, I've noticed that mixing everything up is great fun for them and encourages them to forage which is a really essential enrichment. That's also why we like to put food around their floor space too to make them search/stretch/climb etc.

We even stopped giving them bell pepper recently because of the sugar content. I know it's supposed to fine and I'm sure it is but, after all of Biscuit's digestion issues, I prefer to stick to cucumber and lettuce where I know there's not much but a bit of fibre, vitamin C and water