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Thorn - Weight Loss And Cloudy Wee Mystery

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lauraboara

Adult Guinea Pig
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If you have any spare healing vibes, please send them in the direction of my littlest boar, Thorn.


Here he is being camouflaged!
He is at the vet at the minute - he has had x-rays, bloods taken and teeth checked under bit of anesthetic today. His only symptoms are some weight loss over recent weeks (stablised at the moment though) and very cloudy wee - and my instinct that something is up! He is very quiet by nature so hard to judge from behaviour. He has been on Septrin and Metacam for a week but he may need more antibiotics. Lets hope it is just a UTI and not something else. Come on little man.
 
Lots of love and vibes to Thorn, hope the cause can be found. Let us know what the vet says x
 
Have got all the results back from the vet today. Mixed news. Good news is that there were no stones visible on the xrays and that teeth and jaw looked normal. Phew.
however, blood test showed that something is going on - high white blood cell count so his little body is fighting something and there were also indicators of liver damage. So advised to stop the metacam just because of the possible link to liver issues and to continue with the Septrin to help him beat the infection. Vet says livers are quite good at repairing but he needs to get rid of this infection. and need to keep checking his weight.

Although I thought at one point I was a little mad getting these tests, I am pleased I did because it has helped guide what is the best treatment. Thanks to Wiebke and sport billy for the vibes for Thorn. x
 
Aw poor little Thorn, he's a real cutie - lots of vibes heading his way. Have you considered an alternative pain killer? Or does any pain killer have negative liver associations?
 
Thanks guys. He seems quite lively today, weight stable but not his normal level.
Has anyone eg @Wiebke got any advise on special dietary considerations for a piggie with liver damage hopefully, repairing?
 
Liver damage is not great news, but I hope that he can get over his infection well!

I would go careful on all veg that are high on vitamin A like carrots, lettuce and some fresh herbs, but you will need to balance it out as several of the veg are also high in vitamin C and magnesium, so you can't just drop everything. He will still need some vitamin A anyway! Any ecess vitamins that don't dissolve in water and are excreted via the bladder tend to build-up in the liver.
You may find the sortable veg chart on Guinea Lynx helpful in working out a practical diet; check the second from last column.
http://www.guinealynx.info/chart.html#chart
 
What gorgeous colour! I hope he makes a good recovery. No specific advice, but lots of good vibes!
 
I have just had blood test results back on one of my piggies - one of the liver enzyme result was off and apparently this is to be expected if the piggie has not been eating properly because of some other underlying condition. In my case the piggie had overgrown molars. It is a normal response from the liver.to starvation. If malnutirition continues for a length of time, then a condition known as fatty liver can result but at this stage with Thorn, once he starts eating properly and regaining his weight there shouldbn't be any further problem

However, you mention a high white call count/infection - did the results say whether the white cells were neutrophils, lymphocytes oir eosinophils? This gives an indication of the type of infection (Bacterial, viral or parasitic respectively) or whether there is just a general anti-inflammatory response.

Some infections do reach the liver (it is a major defence at filtering certain nasty bugs from the blood) so the liver enzyme results could also point to a systemic low grade infection.

Hopefully the septrin will clear the infection as it is a very broad spectrum antibiotic and active against most of the more common bacterial infections of guinea pigs (unless the bugs have drug-resistance).

I'm surprised the vet has withdrawn metacam on the basis of liver issues because metacam is generally regarded as having renal toxicity issues, especially in animals already renally challenged.
If pain relief is required to get Thorn eating more. perhaps the vet would prescribe tramadol instead. (My vet uses this in preference to metacam now for pure pain relief if anit-inlalmmatory intervention is not required - which is what metacam is best at) .

As to diet - plenty of fibre (some nice hays perk them up), extra critical care or mushed pellets in between, extra vit C, veggies (if his gut is OK) and dried herbage to include echinacea (coneflower) for the immune system and milk thistle for the liver. The Woodlands guinea pig herbal forage contains birch leaves (for urinary issues) willow bark (care here as willow contains aspirin which is classed as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory) and echinacea. Dried milk thistle can be obtained from Galens Garden or you could discuss with the vet using a capsule supplement and sprinking the powder into the critical care.

HTH and he makes a full recovery shortly
x.
 
Thank you, especially to @Pebble and @Wiebke for the advice. I have been reading the lists of veg analysis and Pebbles' comments helped me with my discussions with the vet.
i have not been able to reply properly before as in amongst Thorn's illness, my mother-in-law died (motor neurone disease, grim) so we have had a bit of a rough time this Christmas.

Anyway, Thorn is still proving to be a mystery - he is now off Septrin and back on metacam. The vet is still standing by the possible risk that if an animal already has hepatic problems and or renal problems, metacam may make it worse - caveat being we don't know enough about gps as usual. I opted to go for metacam anyway because I have been struggling to keep his weight up and he seems better on it. In terms of behaviour, he is bright, asking for food, not sitting in a corner or fluffed up or classic 'sick' signs. But he is not well, I can just tell.
Vet brought up idea of tramadol without me suggesting it but we are keeping that as back up plan.

I got to look at his blood results and could see the elevated liver enzymes ALTs and the other one. The white cell count was high but did not seem to be clear on what white cells were involved and to be honest my head is a bit of shed given funeral etc just before xmas etc. But i will ask again when I go back this week. I think vet will want to do a second blood test then to see if the various indicators have changed.
I am doing 'top up' syringe feeds just to try and keep his weight up and also separating him from his cagemate for some quiet eating time. Giving lots of posh hay and extra vit c - will look into milk thistle also.
 
I am so sorry that you are having such a rough time. It is often difficult to treat piggies as there is so little research yet. You are a great and very loving piggy Mummy, and you are doing all you can!
 
At little update on Thorn. Not very good news though.

He has had another blood test and the results were pretty much the same - still high for liver enzymes and white cells count. Vet is concluding he has an inflamed liver but we can't know the cause. He has offered various liver bisopsy options but I am not sure what to do as they pose risks and may not change the treatment options.
Currently Thorn is on metacam, milk thistle, extra vit C and lots of syringe feeds. However much I feed him, he does not put on any weight :(
I feel I am losing him but just very slowly which is heart breaking.

But he is such a good boy - I can't tell you how bittersweet it is to syringe feed him - he sits with his two front feet on two of my fingers and just waits for the syringe - I don't have to restrain him at all.


If anyone has any spare vibes for this sweet little man, please send them his way. x

@Wiebke - Hi. I know you have had some sad experiences with liver failure in your herd in the past. Can you offer any advise on my choices now? Is a liver biopsy worth it considering his low weight now (about 820g and he should be 940g normally)?
 
I am ever so sorry; it is a bittersweet time indeed! But considering his weight, you still have a bit more time left with Thorn weight-wise before things become critical.

I never had a biopsy done after weighing up the stress and risk/cost/treatment gain ratio with my vet. But in this, the balance is individually different for every owner. Some have the need to exhaust every possible option to buy their piggies more time, others prefer to let their piggies go in as much comfort as possible without putting them through undue stress. Either decision is equally valid.
 
I am ever so sorry; it is a bittersweet time indeed! But considering his weight, you still have a bit more time left with Thorn weight-wise before things become critical.

I never had a biopsy done after weighing up the stress and risk/cost/treatment gain ratio with my vet. But in this, the balance is individually different for every owner. Some have the need to exhaust every possible option to buy their piggies more time, others prefer to let their piggies go in as much comfort as possible without putting them through undue stress. Either decision is equally valid.

thanks Wiebke - I do feel very much caught in the dilemma you describe. Vets tend to always want to know things and fix things (which is good that they do!) but the risks, costs and knowledge that you actually gain with some guinea pig illnesses is a real challenge for us carers.

I am trying to enjoy each day with Thorn - as you can probably tell, he is really such a sweet natured pig and tolerates the nightmare pig, his cagemate Cheeky!
 
thanks Wiebke - I do feel very much caught in the dilemma you describe. Vets tend to always want to know things and fix things (which is good that they do!) but the risks, costs and knowledge that you actually gain with some guinea pig illnesses is a real challenge for us carers.

I am trying to enjoy each day with Thorn - as you can probably tell, he is really such a sweet natured pig and tolerates the nightmare pig, his cagemate Cheeky!

Vets have the duty to offer you further avenues as long as there any, but if you make clear what your general stance is re. extended procedures/potential gains, they are usually prepared to discuss with you more openly the various aspects of the triangle. The ultimate decision always lies with you. Admittedly, it is never an easy one, especially when you decide to draw the line! :(
 
Sending huge healing vibes to little Thorn! I'm having problems with my piggie as well and although I enjoy the bonding times with hand feeding I just want him well again and wheeking & popcorning like his brother!

You are doing all you can for your wee one - sending you both hugs x
 
Sending huge healing vibes to little Thorn! I'm having problems with my piggie as well and although I enjoy the bonding times with hand feeding I just want him well again and wheeking & popcorning like his brother!

You are doing all you can for your wee one - sending you both hugs x
That is a lovely message - thank you. I hope your little one picks up soon and starts eating more himself.
 
A very sad update on Thorn. We have been through a roller coaster of a battle trying to find out what is wrong with Thorn and behind the weight loss since I last posted. Different meds, weeks of syringe feeding and blood tests etc. It appeared to be a liver issue - maybe a humdinger of an infection / internal abscess. We were considering endoscopy.
Then last week, he developed an abscess under his chin - I had a long deliberation on what to do for the best with lots of help behind the scenes on the forum to give me more information. It was almost a PTS decision on Friday but he rallied and put on some weight so he had a weekend of being fed anything he wanted this weekend! Anyway, today he had an operation to sort out the chin abscess and that went really well. But then he died 5 minutes before I collected him this afternoon. He was eating just a few minutes before.

Very lost without him. Cheeky his cagemate is rampaging around the playpen calling for him :( and is very unsettled.

Thank you to @Pebble , @Abi_nurse , @furryfriends Excellent Adventure Sanctuary and @Salt n Peppers mum who have been giving me and Thorn lots of support behind the scenes. Although it is a cr*p outcome, as least I tried lots of options for Thorn and fought hard. x
 
I started making Thorn his probiotic on cucumber on autopilot this morning and then stopped. Miserable without him to peep out at me from his usual tunnel.
 
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