Two baby sows - advice

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larnanoomia

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Hi

I have two sows. We have daisy and rosalina. They were not purchased together, I saw one little baby rosalina at her own in pets At home and I couldn't leave her at just 8-10 weeks old to be a sole piglet (my original four are rescues) i tried to bond rosalina with raichu (boy) & peach (sow) but sadly peach wouldn't tolerate her and rosalina was on her own again. I then had to go out and buy daisy. Who was around 8 weeks old. (No judgement for the purchase of piglets, I only got rosalina because she was on her own and daisy had to follow as I couldn't find a single sow to adopt for a companion)

Anyway both girls are about 6 months old now and very similar in weight there is only about 30g between them so they can't decide who's boss i don't think. They've had no actual fights, no blood drawn. They 'chin off' daily though and teeth chatter loudly, but not all the time
I work from home so can observe them. One will teeth chatter if there is food etc, the usual issues. I have multiples of everything and no hides with 1 exit etc. Theyve been together 3/4 months.

I dont know if its just sassy sows and I'm not used to their behaviour as my other two pairings are boy/girls.

Is this cause for concern? My other pairings don't teeth chatter at all. I'm worried that they only tolerate eachother and tensions may escalate.
 
Hi

Sows can have the odd squabble but it shouldn't happen daily. They are currently at the height of their own teenage hormones, though.

However we cannot tell you what exactly is going on sight unseen and without body language and situational context.

If you have concerns about a dysfunctional bond, then you can try a 2 day trial separation with a divider to see whether one party is much happier when away from the other - or both and they may come to conclusion that they'd rather have each her own territory.
Please follow the advice in this guide here: Bonds In Trouble

Sow fall-outs are much less common and they do not end in big fights with bits like boars although they can escalate to a scuffle; but they do happen.

I currently have a pair of 5 years old cousins who have been together since birth (a week apart) in the same cage and who decidedly do no longer want to be together in whatever shape or form (giving me a nice big headache in the process as I am working my numbers down). They are not my first case. There was an underlying rivalry from when I adopted them as a pair at just a few weeks old.

I hope that this helps you to work out what is going on and that you can then take it from there.
 
Wiebke said:
Hi

Sows can have the odd squabble but it shouldn't happen daily. They are currently at the height of their own teenage hormones, though.

However we cannot tell you what exactly is going on sight unseen and without body language and situational context.

If you have concerns about a dysfunctional bond, then you can try a 2 day trial separation with a divider to see whether one party is much happier when away from the other - or both and they may come to conclusion that they'd rather have each her own territory.
Please follow the advice in this guide here: Bonds In Trouble

Sow fall-outs are much less common and they do not end in big fights with bits like boars although they can escalate to a scuffle; but they do happen.

I currently have a pair of 5 years old cousins who have been together since birth (a week apart) in the same cage and who decidedly do no longer want to be together in whatever shape or form (giving me a nice big headache in the process as I am working my numbers down). They are not my first case. There was an underlying rivalry from when I adopted them as a pair at just a few weeks old.

I hope that this helps you to work out what is going on and that you can then take it from there.
Click to expand...
Thank you i will read up on that link you posted. Neither seem stressed and will nap closely and be in the hay together, but at the same time when someone wants something like a piece of food, neither will back down and move on
 
larnanoomia said:
Thank you, I just assumed the biggest pig would be the boss. That's what my other couples are like x
Click to expand...

It’s their character, confidence and attitude which makes them the dominant. Physical size may play a small part but it isn’t the main part.

I have two dominant boys left (they had a fight years ago so have lived separately since) but the smallest one was most definitely the most aggressive when the fight broke out
 
Piggies&buns said:
It’s their character, confidence and attitude which makes them the dominant. Physical size may play a small part but it isn’t the main part.

I have two dominant boys left (they had a fight years ago so have lived separately since) but the smallest one was most definitely the most aggressive when the fight broke out
Click to expand...
Thank you! I think they are both sassy and both strong personalities. Both are happy though I wouldn't say anyone displayed any stressed behaviour. I plan to observe more & then i can make a decision on a trial separation. Hopefully not though, ive already had to sell my couch In the front room. Started with 2 pigs, escalated to 6 😂
 
Morning.
I hope your girls settle down soon maybe after their hormones settle a bit but it's good that you are with them to monitor.
Selling your couch that's a dedicated guinea parent 🥰 and 6 wonderful guineas taking over your home 🥰
You could share some photos if you like 💐
 
CTWC said:
Morning.
I hope your girls settle down soon maybe after their hormones settle a bit but it's good that you are with them to monitor.
Selling your couch that's a dedicated guinea parent 🥰 and 6 wonderful guineas taking over your home 🥰
You could share some photos if you like 💐
Click to expand...
 

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I'm WFH today and the babies have had some episodes of chasing eachother, I think daisy is the boss and roz is happy to accept judging by her squeaks but unfortunately daisy seems abit relentless with her behaviour.

I have two options if this doesn't work, split the babies pray for best and have two trios.
My other couples are boy (3) girl (1) and boy (3) and girl (2)

Both the girls were rescues though one i don't know her history and the other was barbered by other female guineas so she has a chip on her shoulder with other females.

Option two is keep babies together and try have one group of four - would going into a new group together force them both to be submissive to the older more established pig or is this a recipe for disaster ?

I havent made any decisions yet , just thinking of ideas as ideally I don't want any single pigs or to have to get more. 6 Is my limit space wise and financially.
 
A bit of chasing between teenagers isn’t unusual and on face value not of concern enough to split.

If they don’t get on as a pair, adding other piggies will not change things between them - they still won’t get on and instead it’ll be a trickier dynamic with more instability.
They won’t be forced to become submissive by adding in a pair of older sows and it can come with its own challenges. You will have a dominant in the pair you have, plus a dominant in any new pair and then those two dominant sows can end up clashing if neither wants to back down and lose position so then the bonding won’t work anyway
They either get on as a pair (and then there is the possibility of adding others if you wanted a larger herd) or they don’t get on they would have to be separated

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
 
Piggies&buns said:
A bit of chasing between teenagers isn’t unusual and on face value not of concern enough to split.

If they don’t get on as a pair, adding other piggies will not change things between them - they still won’t get on and instead it’ll be a trickier dynamic with more instability.
They won’t be forced to become submissive by adding in a pair of older sows and it can come with its own challenges.
You will have a dominant in the pair you have, plus a dominant in any new pair and then those two dominant sows can end up clashing if neither wants to back down and then the bonding won’t work anyway
They either get on as a pair (and then there is the possibility of adding others if you wanted a larger herd) or they don’t get on and would have to be separated

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Click to expand...
Thank you. Unfortunately they've had a scuffle and I'm just setting things up now for a trial separation :(
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m sorry to hear that - you always hope it’s a little bit of teenage something but nothing and that it settles down
Click to expand...
Thank you, we will see what happens after a few days. For the reintroduction, would that be in a neutral space or can i remove the separator?
 
Neutral territory is always best. You don’t want to give them any reason to feel territorial and then that be a possible reason for a reintroduction to fail.
 
If they didn't work as a pair could a baby go in with each of your existing pairs? So two trios of boar plus 2 sows? 🤔🥰
 
The pigs are separate now with a couple of grids between them
Roz is 600g and daisy is 771g - daisy is 2 weeks younger than roz. Is this a huge weight difference ? I would've expected them to be thr same. I've had daisy for 112 days I've worked out so shes not pregnant cos she would've had pups by now. Maybe shes been stopping roz from eating as much
 
larnanoomia said:
The pigs are separate now with a couple of grids between them
Roz is 600g and daisy is 771g - daisy is 2 weeks younger than roz. Is this a huge weight difference ? I would've expected them to be thr same. I've had daisy for 112 days I've worked out so shes not pregnant cos she would've had pups by now. Maybe shes been stopping roz from eating as much
Click to expand...

The size difference is fine - what is important is that they are putting on weight well and are each a good heft. You can’t compare the weight of one to the weight of the other; they’re the same as humans, all in different shapes and sizes.

They will all get to their adult weight in their own time.
My last two had a 350g difference throughout their whole lives. Current two don’t live together but are around 150-200g different

As long as Roz has been putting on weight at each weekly weight check then she hasn’t been prevented from eating
 
Sorry to ask more questions. Is there any signs that the pigs want to be together whilst they are side by side. So far rosalina has acted like daisy doesn't exist and daisy has been rumble strutting at the separator
 
Rosalina acting like daisy doesn’t exist usually means that Rosalina is happy to be away from daisy.
If you are worried that daisy has been bullying rosalina then sadly her indifference to the separation can be taken as a sign that they won’t go back together.

In the case of bullying then it is never the one doing the bullying you look at: the bully will always display upset as the separation.
Daisy rumbling at the divider is a territorial and dominance sign. Not a sign of wanting to be together nor indeed that they can be together.

The reality is though that until you have let them have a few days apart and then reintroduced on neutral territory, you won’t know.
It is the reintroduction that will give you the answer. If Rosalina withdraws in daisy’s presence of if another scuffle breaks out then they would have to remain separated
 
Piggies&buns said:
Rosalina acting like daisy doesn’t exist usually means that Rosalina is happy to be away from daisy.
If you are worried that daisy has been bullying rosalina then sadly her indifference to the separation can be taken as a sign that they won’t go back together.

In the case of bullying then it is never the one doing the bullying you look at: the bully will always display upset as the separation.
Daisy rumbling at the divider is a territorial and dominance sign. Not a sign of wanting to be together nor indeed that they can be together.

The reality is though that until you have let them have a few days apart and then reintroduced on neutral territory, you won’t know.
It is the reintroduction that will give you the answer. If Rosalina withdraws in daisy’s presence of if another scuffle breaks out then they would have to remain separated
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply 👍:)
 
Update on the girls, little rosalina is so happy now ☺️ back to being affectionate and popcorning when I am near. I did notice a shift in her behaviour the past month or so which I think was caused by her stressful environment.. I'm still hopeful they can be paired up again but for now I'm happy to have a happy piglet again
 
Hi, I still haven't put the babies back together. Daisy rumbles at the bars & lies down flat to guard her terrority. Rosalina isnt phased and she has been bar biting to get to daisy but isnt showing any signs of dominance. Is this positive ?
 
larnanoomia said:
Hi, I still haven't put the babies back together. Daisy rumbles at the bars & lies down flat to guard her terrority. Rosalina isnt phased and she has been bar biting to get to daisy but isnt showing any signs of dominance. Is this positive ?
Click to expand...

Hi

Unfortunately, you will only know for sure when they meet face to face.

Daisy seems to be rather territorial and disinclined to have Rosalina back.
 
Daisy, if she is the bully, being bothered by the separation is to be expected. The bully generally wants to be back with the other piggy, often just so they can bully again

Rosalina, if she appears happier and is more relaxed now they are not together, then unfortunately that is usually not a positive sign in terms of their ability to rebond. Mostly if the bullied piggy perks up when away from the other then that means a reintroduction will fail.

Territory guarding (and bar biting) is also not a positive sign that the reintroduction will be successful but you will only know for sure when you try it .
 
Thanks both, rosalina has definitely perked up. Daisy was 100% the bully. I'm going to try re bonding Tuesday, if that fails, let them settle down again for a few days and try them as trios with my other pigs instead
 
Adding a single sow in with an already bonded pair can sometimes be quite tricky, particularly when the single piggy being added is not a baby and is already showing dominance.
I see from your first post that Peach has already rejected rosalina so is pretty much guaranteed to do so again
Of course it’s worth a try though as you never know how it will go until you do try.
The guide below explains a little more

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
 
Piggies&buns said:
Adding a single sow in with an already bonded pair can sometimes be quite tricky, particularly when the single piggy being added is not a baby and is already showing dominance.
I see from your first post that Peach has already rejected rosalina so is pretty much guaranteed to do so again
Of course it’s worth a try though as you never know how it will go until you do try.
The guide below explains a little more

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Click to expand...
Thanks i can try rosalina with my other two
& then daisy with the other two. All a big headache bonding piglets 🫢
 
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