Two pairs now one pair and a single (sows)

[Scooter Pie]

Hello everyone. We had two separate female pairs, and lost one last night. Asking this for my 12 year old who wants to try to form a trio ASAP. Brief history:

Buttercup (now deceased) and Kona were a pair. We brought home Cinnamon to try to form a trio and it did not work. Buttercup (large, dominant) faced off with Cinnamon and lunged at her while Kona didn’t pay attention. We couldn’t even have them right next door (kona and buttercup started facing off with each other when Cinnamon was near)

So we adopted Sugar for Cinnamon and had two separate pairs.

Over the summer for some reason, we tried to bond all 4. There was an actual fight with Kona nipping Sugar’s lip.

Now Kona is alone.

The only reason Id consider trying to introduce Kona to Cinnamon and Sugar again is her prior history. We adopted her for Buttercup when she lost her sister Nutmeg. At Kona’s original home she also lost a cage mate and experienced acute pining. She self barbered severely and was emaciated when we got her. Once introduced to Buttercup she bounced back beautifully.

Obviously we don’t want Kona to go through that again. So far she seems to be eating normally but it’s only been 11 hours. She lives in the same room as Cinnamon and Sugar, separated by my comfy chair. She can talk to them.

I'm sorry to ask, but does anyone think it would be a good idea to try to bond the 3 of them?

 

[Wiebke]

Hello everyone. We had two separate female pairs, and lost one last night. Asking this for my 12 year old who wants to try to form a trio ASAP. Brief history:

Buttercup (now deceased) and Kona were a pair. We brought home Cinnamon to try to form a trio and it did not work. Buttercup (large, dominant) faced off with Cinnamon and lunged at her while Kona didn’t pay attention. We couldn’t even have them right next door (kona and buttercup started facing off with each other when Cinnamon was near)

So we adopted Sugar for Cinnamon and had two separate pairs.

Over the summer for some reason, we tried to bond all 4. There was an actual fight with Kona nipping Sugar’s lip.

Now Kona is alone.

The only reason Id consider trying to introduce Kona to Cinnamon and Sugar again is her prior history. We adopted her for Buttercup when she lost her sister Nutmeg. At Kona’s original home she also lost a cage mate and experienced acute pining. She self barbered severely and was emaciated when we got her. Once introduced to Buttercup she bounced back beautifully.

Obviously we don’t want Kona to go through that again. So far she seems to be eating normally but it’s only been 11 hours. She lives in the same room as Cinnamon and Sugar, separated by my comfy chair. She can talk to them.

I'm sorry to ask, but does anyone think it would be a good idea to try to bond the 3 of them?

Hi!

I am very sorry for your loss.

Please give Kona time to grieve for a few days (you will know when she is picking up again and ready for life) and if possible, move both cages next to each other, so Kona has got company during that time and the girls can get to know each other during this time. This should prevent her from becoming depressed. Guinea pigs don't grieve any less than humans but their need to survive is more immediate. As long as she is eating and drinking, she will keep and should be allowed to go through that process.
Looking After A Bereaved Guinea Pig

You can try an introduction with your other girls but please be aware that you can only offer your piggies this option. Whether they gel, is entirely another matter and there is no trick in the world that can make them to.
Adult and older sows are the trickiest to match up in my own and many dating rescues' experience because they live in territorial hierarchical groups and by that time are generally fairly high up or at the top of their own group. They are not necessarily willing to give up this status and submit to another group and group leader. You may find that the bonding may fail over neither party wanting to relinquish their claim to leadership (dominance).
A piggy that has lived in a pair bond from a very young age without interaction with other piggies can also be very insecure when meeting other piggies (wether that is young baby sows or neutered boars of any age).

If that is the case, the alternatives are either next door company through the bars with a single piggy having their own territory but the all important constant stimulation and interaction with others of their kind through the bars. If you have access to a rescue that allows you to bring your piggy for a meet&greet/dating appointment, then you can ensure that the acceptance hurdle is passed. Getting piggies of your own choice for company means that you need to have a plan B in case the bonding doesn't come off. Even two baby girls, which are your best option don't work by any means in all cases even though this version promotes your sow instantly to into an unquestioned group leadership; however some sows can be too frightened of babies or other piggies and overreact (fear-aggression).

Please take the time to read theguide links below. You will find them very helpful in charting a course when working out the solution that suits Kona best - it may not be what is most convenient for you, as I know only too well from my own piggies over the years. They contain all the practical details and in-depth information on the aspects I have mentioned above. When it comes to bonding, adult piggies are every bit as complex as matching up humans...
- Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics (our comprehensive step-by-step bonding guide with attendant behaviours and dynamics for every stage of the complex and much longer bonding process than most people expect)
- Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities (contains a chapter on the challenges specific to bereaved singles and how to spot when piggies are transferring their own social needs onto a human owner)
- Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not? (this guide gives you a look at what works out more often and what has a greater chance of failing; we cannot guarantee success)
- A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed) (much of what is said in the chapter about sow pairs also goes for trios)
- Rescues (Adoption and Dating), Shops, Breeders or Online? - What to consider when getting guinea pigs (a closer loos the advantages and pitfalls of getting your piggies. It also includes chapters on shelters and rescues and on rescue dating and what actually happens).

Please take your time. As long as Kona is eating, you have the time to think things through, do your research and plan ahead for the case that things are not going the way you would like to. I hope that the extra information will help you. While your son's heart is in the right place, it is not quite as quick and easy as he would like it to be.

All the best!

 

[Scooter Pie]

Thank you. I'm hoping my son will read your post.

Here is their set up right now. Kona's on the right. You can tell how I feel about trying to introduce the 3 of them by the fact that I'm scared to even move them next to each other for fear they could bite each other's noses.

Could I push them to within a few inches so that couldn't happen?

 

[Wiebke]

Take a deep breath - they won't bite each other's noses. Mine live all in adjoining cages - all sows with or without a neutered boar; and in all the years I have NEVER had a bite through the bars. There may be a little nip, but that is carefully calculated to NOT break the skin.

Any serious bites are not aggression but in defence and are much rarer than you think. Sows are wired to live together; if they really do not like another piggy, then a mouth full of hair is the female equivalent to a male fighting bite and means the end of the road. In over 70 piggies and with well over 100 bondings I have seen it only perhaps 3 times.

PLEASE move them next to each other; they won't come to any harm. Don't allow your own fears to be ultimately more harmful than anything they could do to each other. Be strong for Kona's sake and happiness so she is not feeling so alone.

 

[Scooter Pie]

Take a deep breath - they won't bite each other's noses. Mine live all in adjoining cages (all sows with or without a neutered boar; and in all the years I have NEVER had a bit through the bars. There may be a little nip, but that is carefully calculated to NOT break the skin.

Any serious bites are not aggression but in defence and are much rarer than you think. Sows are wired to live together; if they really do not like another piggy, then a mouth full of hair is the female equivalent to a male fighting bite and means the end of the road. In over 70 piggies and with well over 100 bondings I have seen it only perhaps 3 times.

PLEASE move them next to each other; they won't come to any harm. Don't allow your own fears to be ultimately more harmful than anything they could do to each other. Be strong for Kona's sake and happiness so she is not feeling so alone.

Thank you. I love rearranging furniature and could use a change too. Good project for today as Ive let my 16 year old skip school and the boy and I have off because our schools (my work) are closed for elections today.

 

[Scooter Pie]

So...I don’t know about this. We have the two cages on the floor for cleaning out the room and rearranging. They were pushed up against each other for maybe 10 minutes. As soon as they discover each other, Cinnamon and Kona are locking eyes, teeth chattering, making that rhythmic chattering sound, Cinnamon’s snorting....how can I let that go on? It’s not even been 24 hours yet. I can’t do this right now.

As usual, I'm probably the rare case. It’s so exhausting. I do not believe they can be next to each other.

But at least for now, Kona has been eating just fine. She joined in on the wheeking when Sugar heard the fridge. That has to be good enough for now. I can’t handle the anxiety it causes me so soon after burying Buttercup today

 

[Bill & Ted]

So...I don’t know about this. We have the two cages on the floor for cleaning out the room and rearranging. They were pushed up against each other for maybe 10 minutes. As soon as they discover each other, Cinnamon and Kona are locking eyes, teeth chattering, making that rhythmic chattering sound, Cinnamon’s snorting....how can I let that go on? It’s not even been 24 hours yet. I can’t do this right now.

As usual, I'm probably the rare case. It’s so exhausting. I do not believe they can be next to each other.

But at least for now, Kona has been eating just fine. She joined in on the wheeking when Sugar heard the fridge. That has to be good enough for now. I can’t handle the anxiety it causes me so soon after burying Buttercup today

So sorry, it sounds like it’s been a long and stressful day, take care of yourself, the piggies will be fine x

 

[Wiebke]

Take care of yourself.
The piggies will keep. But it doesn't look like they are fond of each other. However, even territorial behaviour through the bars is enrichment and interaction... Give Kona time to her own grieving as you are doing yours.

Here is what you can do for yourself in the coming days: Human Bereavement: Grieving, Coping and Support Links for Guinea Pig Owners and Their Children

 

[Scooter Pie]

Take care of yourself.
The piggies will keep. But it doesn't look like they are fond of each other. However, even territorial behaviour through the bars is enrichment and interaction... Give Kona time to her own grieving as you are doing yours.

Here is what you can do for yourself in the coming days: Human Bereavement: Grieving, Coping and Support Links for Guinea Pig Owners and Their Children

Will do

Cinnamon has fear aggression from her experience at the shelter. 6 pigs had been housed together at the Humane Society before they got to the rabbit and pig shelter - males and females - and Cinnamon’s partner was so fat, they thought she was pregnant, so she was separated from her. I don’t know why they thought they had to do that. So she was alone/side by side with others at the shelter when we first brought her home and the first meeting didn’t go well. When it was determined that Sugar was not pregnant, we reunited them and it was instant bonding again.

I guess that doesn’t just go away. Kona is estimated to be about 2 years old now. Would you guys say I should keep a look out for a friend younger?

 

[Wiebke]

You can never predict it but generally fear-aggressive piggies do best with piggies that are not challenging them at all but in the case of my own biggest fear-agressive piggies that has been an older sow (ca. 4-5 years) who was the last survivor and bottom piggy of a larger sow group and very submissive (but vocal) for my Beryn, who was perhaps 1 1/2 years younger and a one year old clever neutered boar who didn't push things and was very patient but took the lead and now, after his sudden early death, my very fear-aggressive Brathlys/Lissie has settled with a baby sow, who is very friendly and a bit cheeky... after Lissie had failed to click with two boars who had been old age companions to 6 years old sows that had passed on. Bonding them the first time round was not easy and took all my experience. Both sows were dumped/abandoned; Lissie had been living rough in the garden for several weeks after her owners moved out and took the hutch with them.

If you cannot rescue date, then it is worth opting for a baby looking for guidance from an older piggy.

 

[Scooter Pie]

You can never predict it but generally fear-aggressive piggies do best with piggies that are not challenging them at all but in the case of my own biggest fear-agressive piggies that has been an older sow (ca. 4-5 years) who was the last survivor and bottom piggy of a larger sow group and very submissive (but vocal) for my Beryn, who was perhaps 1 1/2 years younger and a one year old clever neutered boar who didn't push things and was very patient but took the lead and now, after his sudden early death, my very fear-aggressive Brathlys/Lissie has settled with a baby sow, who is very friendly and a bit cheeky... after Lissie had failed to click with two boars who had been old age companions to 6 years old sows that had passed on. Bonding them the first time round was not easy and took all my experience. Both sows were dumped/abandoned; Lissie had been living rough in the garden for several weeks after her owners moved out and took the hutch with them.

If you cannot rescue date, then it is worth opting for a baby looking for guidance from an older piggy.

I should be able to do a date at the rescue. They only have boars right now, and one girl who is single, but getting a visit from someone else this weekend. That poor piggie was in a pair and her partner was killed by the family dog