We’re bonding four babies and two adults! Progress so far…

[Fluffbabies]

General acceptance stage went very well lots of grooming and cleaning themselves next to each other. Eating hay side by side.

The issue now seems to be that the babies like to all “gang up” on Nugget (top adult pig) at once and challenge her position. Nugget has lunged toward two or three of them separately. This was without any chattering or teeth. It almost seemed like a warning nip but without a nip, a quick lunge toward them but no contact. To make them back off as she had four around her. Two of the babies have lunged back at her later on. Same thing not much warning but no chasing or nipping just a dramatic jump towards her. Goldie in particular has done this to our other older lady Oreo as well now. Jumped at her then walked away chattering.

The babies are being very noisy. For the most part it seems submissive and dramatic so far.

We’re concerned two babies keep challenging the adults especially Nugget and she‘s not always standing up for herself so one of the babies may end up top pig.

So far it dies down between “altercations”. There’s six of them so we’ll be here sat on the floor a while I think! Babies are figuring things out between themselves as well.

Unfortunately did not get the lunges on film. But it’s died down again for now. Nugget seems weary of all the babies and backs up from them and they’ve calmed down a bit.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Take that back… nugget and Goldie just did a flying lunge at each other and are now chattering at a distance. No teeth so far

 

[Fluffbabies]

Shall we let them carry on as long as there’s no chasing, fighting or teeth. Are lunges okay as long as they back down after them?

 

[Wiebke]

General acceptance stage went very well lots of grooming and cleaning themselves next to each other. Eating hay side by side.

The issue now seems to be that the babies like to all “gang up” on Nugget (top adult pig) at once and challenge her position. Nugget has lunged toward two or three of them separately. This was without any chattering or teeth. It almost seemed like a warning nip but without a nip, a quick lunge toward them but no contact. To make them back off as she had four around her. Two of the babies have lunged back at her later on. Same thing not much warning but no chasing or nipping just a dramatic jump towards her. Goldie in particular has done this to our other older lady Oreo as well now. Jumped at her then walked away chattering.

The babies are being very noisy. For the most part it seems submissive and dramatic so far.

We’re concerned two babies keep challenging the adults especially Nugget and she‘s not always standing up for herself so one of the babies may end up top pig.

So far it dies down between “altercations”. There’s six of them so we’ll be here sat on the floor a while I think! Babies are figuring things out between themselves as well.

Unfortunately did not get the lunges on film. But it’s died down again for now. Nugget seems weary of all the babies and backs up from them and they’ve calmed down a bit.

Hi!

Nugget will assert her authority eventually and the babies will accept it without issues; just give them time, please. Lunging is a defensive behaviour, not an agressive one. It translates as 'keep out of my personal space'. There is no real aggression in play. When Nugget is finding her feet she will be quite emphatic in telling the youngsters off and putting them in their place. You have to sit it all out, as nerve-wracking as it is.

My Dryw did it at first too when I bonded her and her 8 years old hub Pioden with a couple of confident babies last week, and she was taken aback initially. In her vase, I had to opt for babies because she is afraid of other piggies and has a tendency to overreact although she is not aggressive by nature.
But she did eventually assert her authority in no uncertain terms (brace for those!) and things have settled down really nicely with the bonding success never at risk and aggression levels never near the line of danger (although it may not seem to you like that when the inevitable face down and assorted chases happen).
Dryw has even discovered that she has a maternal side under all bluster. I am very happy because she will have established company when Pioden passes away in the sadly not very far future and I won't have to struggle with finding a piggy she'll accept.

I would recommend that you have both water bottles and hay in different places so all piggies can access the essentials at all times.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Thanks Wiebke! The two dominant babies Cookie and Goldie (Goldie was a surprise as she has been the most nervous before bonding.. unless it’s fear aggression ) have challenged the older two but they are standing up for themselves sideways on so far. Oreo our very gentle soppy older lady has laid down a few times for a nap and been interrupted by Cookie using it as a chance to challenge her. She stood up for herself.. no one interrupts Oreo’s naps!

Cookie and Goldie have both laid down now. Cookie for a few seconds but Goldie has laid down in a corner for a while. I hope she’s not excluded and she’ll come back to the others who are eating. Goldie was the one who did a flying lunge together with Nugget and Nugget us a big pig and 1.2kg so that can’t have felt good to get body slammed.

 

[My Piggies]

Hopefully it all works out between them

 

[Fluffbabies]

Should we be concerned that Goldie has been over in the corner like this for a few minutes now? She doesn’t look too great? We’re worried she’s hurt? Should we go check on her?

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks Wiebke! The two dominant babies Cookie and Goldie (Goldie was a surprise as she has been the most nervous before bonding.. unless it’s fear aggression ) have challenged the older two but they are standing up for themselves sideways on so far. Oreo our very gentle soppy older lady has laid down a few times for a nap and been interrupted by Cookie using it as a chance to challenge her. She stood up for herself.. no one interrupts Oreo’s naps!

Cookie and Goldie have both laid down now. Cookie for a few seconds but Goldie has laid down in a corner for a while. I hope she’s not excluded and she’ll come back to the others who are eating. Goldie was the one who did a flying lunge together with Nugget and Nugget us a big pig and 1.2kg so that can’t have felt good to get body slammed.

Bonding happens in rounds and between different piggies as the hierarchy is worked out. The bonding has now moved from acceptance and leadership clearance into working out the hierarchy - especially that between the leader of the pups and the bottom pig of the elders. Any piggies not directly involved will sit this round out but you will see the whole dominance travel down the new hierarchy ladder from top to bottom over the coming days as the new group will be fully established in their new large cage.

It takes experience to understand what it going on and to get a real feel for where a bonding is headed. I have tried to pack as much as possible into the bonding guide in view of it being such variable and often subtle procedure with always unique dynamics between unique personalities. Every bonding is different although there are underlying rules which the piggies instinctively understand.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Oh Goldie’s moved, she washed herself a bit and has laid back down. Demi who we think is her sister went up to her, washed herself in front of her but Goldie put her head up and Demi has left her alone. Has Goldie got excluded / excluded herself?

 

[Wiebke]

Should we be concerned that Goldie has been over in the corner like this for a few minutes now? She doesn’t look too great? We’re worried she’s hurt? Should we go check on her?

Don't worry and leave her be. This is not her time to be in the thick of it.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Should we put another pile of hay buy Goldie in the corner?

 

[Wiebke]

Oh Goldie’s moved, she washed herself a bit and has laid back down. Demi who we think is her sister went up to her, washed herself in front of her but Goldie put her head up and Demi has left her alone. Has Goldie got excluded / excluded herself?

Goldie's washing is just what you want to see - she is signalling that she wants to be part of the new group.

Demi has come up to offer her (submissive) friendship but Goldie is maintaining her higher ranking. Please stop worrying; things are all on mild side and just what you expect to see for this stage of the bonding process.

 

[Wiebke]

Should we put another pile of hay buy Goldie in the corner?

Please, just leave Goldie be and DO NOT INTERFERE!

It is all going very nicely indeed! You are now in the roughest bit of the bonding. It is never pretty but the less you muck around, the quicker the piggies can work through it. It is simply a necessary stage in establishing a fully working group. Unlike you, the piggies have the manual and know what is up.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Please, just leave Goldie be and DO NOT INTERFERE!

It is all going very nicely indeed! You are now in the roughest bit of the bonding. It is never pretty but the less you muck around, the quicker the piggies can work through it. It is simply a necessary stage in establishing a fully working group. Unlike you, the piggies have the manual and know what is up.

Thank you for all your help! You’ve helped to put us more at ease and it makes more sense when someone points out what it means! We’ve had four of them lay down for a rest. Cookie (top baby) is figuring things out with Oreo (bottom elder) but still every now and then going and challenging top elder pig Nugget. They‘re having face offs but Nugget is still being gentle with Cookie.

Goldie has ventured out of the corner into the centre then back into corner. Now she‘s come out again and is joining in two of the other babies and Oreo. Meanwhile Demi is still trying to be friends with Nugget. Demi was the first baby Nugget lunged defensively at. Everytime Nugget goes within 1-2 feet of Demi, Demi starts loud submissive squeaks which is really cute. Nugget chatters at her from a distance and Demi just faces her squeaking. but Demi still follows Nugget when she walks off trying to sniff her bottom and eat with her. Demi is trying to be accepted but Nugget is a drama queen when a baby goes up to her. She always has been with other pigs. She does a 180 jump to face them as if they’re ambushing her.

Nugget is very skittish and nervous to be a top pig but we lost the old second pig Leia then top pig Ginger so it was only Oreo and Nugget and Oreo is as chilled back as you can get. She just wants an easy life. Only tends to stand up for herself if it involves food or her nap time She’s never started any drama and is very submissive. So Nugget had to be top pig lol.

We are currently all grazing. Goldie has rejoined but at a distance.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Nugget went up to Goldie slowly and gently and Goldie ran away back to her corner. Things have calmed down again with lots of them washing each other next to each other. What a rollercoaster it is! We still have Goldie to come back and find her place in time.

It is very interesting to watch for sure and nerve wracking.

Goldie‘s made her way to the hay with Nugget and Cookie… this will be interesting

 

[Fluffbabies]

How long do we leave the cage as it is with hay and water only? I know they’re alright like this for quite a while

 

[Fluffbabies]

Nugget went to where Oreo was sleeping, rubbles at her a bit. Oreo nipped her a couple of times before licking her eyes and then they snuggled together! Cookie saw this and walked up to Nuggets bottom then she laid down with them! The top three had a snuggle session Then Cookie went off to eat with Goldie in the hay. Oreo and Nugget are snuggled up to each other asleep in the corner. All of them are now napping except for Goldie who is quieting moving around the cage eating hay and approaching the two bottom babies.

 

[Wiebke]

Nugget went to where Oreo was sleeping, rubbles at her a bit. Oreo nipped her a couple of times before licking her eyes and then they snuggled together! Cookie saw this and walked up to Nuggets bottom then she laid down with them! The top three had a snuggle session Then Cookie went off to eat with Goldie in the hay. Oreo and Nugget are snuggled up to each other asleep in the corner. All of them are now napping except for Goldie who is quieting moving around the cage eating hay and approaching the two bottom babies.

Sounds like it is all going nicely. There is always one piggy that keeps a safe distance; Goldie knows where she stands with her sisters, so there won't be any issues. And Nugget is obviously comforted and supported by her own crew, which is lovely to see.

Personally, I prefer to keep my piggies in the bonding pen longer (later afternoon) so they can work through a few more rounds of the roughest part of the bonding process and you will have a much smoother ride in the cage with less shenanigans there.
You can however transfer now if you wish to, but then there will be more of a renewal of the hierarchy establishment and more dominance in the cage.

It is a trade off. Most people are keen to put their piggies into their new home but I have found that it is actually smoother if you give them more time in the bonding area (if necessary even overnight with a more dodgy bonding than yours is). You are now in the discretionary zone. The piggies will have their rests between spurts of interaction; it goes in rounds. You can add more hay or feed them some fresh food they are used to.

 

[Fluffbabies]

Yay

You’re right they’ve had a couple more interactions spread out amongst laying together and eating together. Mostly still Cookie seeing what she can get away with with Nugget and Oreo. We’re happy to leave them in this bonding cage for the day. It’s a 5x4 and their normal cage was going to be a 5x3 with lots of floor time but we might see if we can move furniture around so they can keep this bigger size.

When it’s time for a new cage should we put them in a clean one with everything added in or add hidies and food bowls in this bonding one using it as their cage for a day or so before changing everything?

Everything seemed fine then Cookie tried it with Nugget again and this time Nugget wasn’t having any of it and nipped her a few times at once and sent her running. I thought it could have been a fight when the kerfuffle started. Cookie has laid down on the other side of the cage now looking very sad and sorry for herself! After a while Nugget settled and laid down too. Interestingly Effie who’s possibly the second of the babies in the hierarchy went up to Cookie (they have been besties). Cookie got up and was very noisily rumblestrutting to Effie and rubbing her wiggling bottom on her which I thought was hilarious. Then they went and ate hay together… don’t forget where you came from Cookie trying to play with the big piggies!

 

[Wiebke]

Yay

You’re right they’ve had a couple more interactions spread out amongst laying together and eating together. Mostly still Cookie seeing what she can get away with with Nugget and Oreo. We’re happy to leave them in this bonding cage for the day. It’s a 5x4 and their normal cage was going to be a 5x3 with lots of floor time but we might see if we can move furniture around so they can keep this bigger size.

When it’s time for a new cage should we put them in a clean one with everything added in or add hidies and food bowls in this bonding one using it as their cage for a day or so before changing everything?

Everything seemed fine then Cookie tried it with Nugget again and this time Nugget wasn’t having any of it and nipped her a few times at once and sent her running. I thought it could have been a fight when the kerfuffle started. Cookie has laid down on the other side of the cage now looking very sad and sorry for herself! After a while Nugget settled and laid down too. Interestingly Effie who’s possibly the second of the babies in the hierarchy went up to Cookie (they have been besties). Cookie got up and was very noisily rumblestrutting to Effie and rubbing her wiggling bottom on her which I thought was hilarious. Then they went and ate hay together… don’t forget where you came from Cookie trying to play with the big piggies!

Nice to see it going to plan; Nugget is now making clear to Cookie that she is the next higher ranked sow and Cookie will pass the bucket straight on to Effie by dominance rumblestrutting to her, in case Effie may be getting ideas after the rebuff...

You do no longer have to sit by, just give them the time to roughly settle the hierarchy so that is all out of the way when they move into their cleaned joint cage. Being cleaned and changed will in this case cause less territory related dominance and they can set up their new mingled group scent together.

You should transfer the group scent of a stable bonded pair or group into a new area to avoid a new hierarchy sort out with a territory change but it is better to give a newly bonded and established group a clean canvas to set up their new shop. Don't go overboard with a deep clean, just a change of bedding and mixing the furniture around will do the trick.
I hope that that make sense?

 

[Fluffbabies]

They are all doing well. Thank you for all the help. We will keep them in the neutral space for a while definitely over night. When can we start adding hideys in or shall we go to putting them into their forever cage as the next step?

 

[Fluffbabies]

Nice to see it going to plan; Nugget is now making clear to Cookie that she is the next higher ranked sow and Cookie will pass the bucket straight on to Effie by dominance rumblestrutting to her, in case Effie may be getting ideas after the rebuff...

You do no longer have to sit by, just give them the time to roughly settle the hierarchy so that is all out of the way when they move into their cleaned joint cage. Being cleaned and changed will in this case cause less territory related dominance and they can set up their new mingled group scent together.

You should transfer the group scent of a stable bonded pair or group into a new area to avoid a new hierarchy sort out with a territory change but it is better to give a newly bonded and established group a clean canvas to set up their new shop. Don't go overboard with a deep clean, just a change of bedding and mixing the furniture around will do the trick.
I hope that that make sense?

Thanks, so do you recommend not adding hideys in until resettled in normal set up?

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks, so do you recommend not adding hideys in until resettled in normal set up?

You can move them to their cage set up with hideys with two exits if you think that they have settled down well now. Make sure that you place the hideys so that there are no dead corners a piggy can fetch up in and sprinkle feed.

Chucking youngsters out of a place or off a bowl is par for this part of post-intro dominance phase when the rankings are firmed up; the worst of this should be over within a couple of days with youngsters although it lasts on average around 2 weeks. The higher ranked piggies are just throwing their weight around to put the babies firmly in their place at the bottom.

This is gives you the evening to keep an eye on how they settle into their home together but you can go to bed without worrying.

 

[Merab]

Glad all is going well and you are surviving the bonding.
This thread took me back to when I bonded 2 pairs of sows and I really valued the ongoing support and advice I rec here.
The forum saved my sanity.

Congratulations on a successful bonding.

 

[Wiebke]

Here is more on typical sow dominance behaviours so you can brace yourself. By the sound of it, you should only see the milder version: Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)