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What is happening here? Any ideas?

tabelmabel

tabelmabel

Adult Guinea Pig
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Hi all,


A very strange thing is happening with my 6½ year old sow, Belle. Belle was bereaved 2 weeks ago of her cagemate so she's on her own just now.

She's been ok, back in an indoor cage but out on the grass on sunny days.
Now she's alone, it's more obvious that she doesn't eat nearly the amount of veg that her younger cagemate did.

And a quick mouth inspection has revealed some dental issues!

Anyway, yesterday Belle was very quiet and refusing veg. I have made a vet appt with a cavy savvy vet but 1st appt Monday. It's not an emergency as i made some critical care up and Belle went to that herself and ate a good amount plus dry food (i use Oxbow Cavy Cuisine which is hay based)

But she was not touching hay, any veg (even fresh parsley) so i though her teeth must be making chewing impossible but, with her appetite good, i was confident of getting her through the weekend.


So - i'm just back from the shops with some infant calpol (in case of mouth pain) and some recovery food to fine Belle woolfing down parsley with no apparent issue and tackling a fresh corn on the cob with gusto!


She has not had any medication so i don't think she's been ill and recovered. She's still away to the vet monday for her teeth but this is a miracle i have never seen in any of my piggies before.


What could be happening?
 
tabelmabel said:
Hi all,


A very strange thing is happening with my 6½ year old sow, Belle. Belle was bereaved 2 weeks ago of her cagemate so she's on her own just now.

She's been ok, back in an indoor cage but out on the grass on sunny days.
Now she's alone, it's more obvious that she doesn't eat nearly the amount of veg that her younger cagemate did.

And a quick mouth inspection has revealed some dental issues!

Anyway, yesterday Belle was very quiet and refusing veg. I have made a vet appt with a cavy savvy vet but 1st appt Monday. It's not an emergency as i made some critical care up and Belle went to that herself and ate a good amount plus dry food (i use Oxbow Cavy Cuisine which is hay based)

But she was not touching hay, any veg (even fresh parsley) so i though her teeth must be making chewing impossible but, with her appetite good, i was confident of getting her through the weekend.


So - i'm just back from the shops with some infant calpol (in case of mouth pain) and some recovery food to fine Belle woolfing down parsley with no apparent issue and tackling a fresh corn on the cob with gusto!


She has not had any medication so i don't think she's been ill and recovered. She's still away to the vet monday for her teeth but this is a miracle i have never seen in any of my piggies before.


What could be happening?
Click to expand...

Hi

I am ever so sorry for your loss and for Belle's problems in the wake of it.

Please switch from weighing once weekly to weighing daily first thing in the morning on your kitchen scales in order to monitor the actual food intake. You can never judge the crucial hay intake, which makes over three quarters of the daily intake and which is usually the first one dropped just by eye. Her munching on a little parsley must be a relief but that is kind of us saying of an ill person that they have just got a digestive biscuit down.
This newer guide of mine explains the various health monitoring methods, what they do and - crucially - what each of them doesn't do and how you use them all together to best effect. You may find it helpful in putting any weight loss into the accurate perspective so you know how much feeding support she actually needs every day. This can vary in piggies who are still partially eating and drinking.
Weight and Weight Loss Explained: BMI, Weighing, Poos and Feeding Support

Please also keep in mind that if the gradually decreased hay intake has being going on for a while the dental overgrowth may be secondary to an underlying developing health issue elsewhere in the body and not necessarily be the primary issue.

Wishing you and your poorly girl all the best.
 
Just a wee update - I have been thinking about what @Wiebke says about the teeth maybe being a secondary issue and i think this is very likely.

I had been weighing daily anyway since the loss of Ebony a couple of weeks ago and she seems to be holding steady around 830g. She is a bit ribby - in the thin category on Wiebke's guide. That's not new though. In her prime she was 980g but she is quite old now (6½ yrs)

I am away next week so hubby will run her to the vet. I think, if blood tests are offered, we will go for those to see what's up (that was so useful for a previous piggy that had liver disease; even though his prognosis was terminal it was helpful to know the cause and that he was not going to recover)


Belle has been lively on the food today (not hay) but she's had more parsley and a full strawberry which has to be good for fluid and vit C (strawbs were never a regular part of her diet; it's not fruit that's done for her teeth)

Totally get that eating a bit of veg doesn't mean she's on the mend but, yesterday, it was one of those days where she could have gone either way today. I don't think she touched any food at all through the night on Wednesday.

In fact, Thurs 1st thing i syringed critical care. Then realised she could eat it well herself from a bowl. But that was the only thing she would eat yesterday.

I syringed more about midnight last night to get her through. So, to see her chowing down on the veg today is a welcome surprise!

I do feel cautiously optimistic that she will easily make it through til Monday and we won't be in an expensive Sunday or out of hours vet dilemma.


She's looking so much better than she did yesterday, that's for sure.


Will let you know how she gets on on Monday - but i do know it's not likely to be great news. Just need to see.
 
tabelmabel said:
Just a wee update - I have been thinking about what @Wiebke says about the teeth maybe being a secondary issue and i think this is very likely.

I had been weighing daily anyway since the loss of Ebony a couple of weeks ago and she seems to be holding steady around 830g. She is a bit ribby - in the thin category on Wiebke's guide. That's not new though. In her prime she was 980g but she is quite old now (6½ yrs)

I am away next week so hubby will run her to the vet. I think, if blood tests are offered, we will go for those to see what's up (that was so useful for a previous piggy that had liver disease; even though his prognosis was terminal it was helpful to know the cause and that he was not going to recover)


Belle has been lively on the food today (not hay) but she's had more parsley and a full strawberry which has to be good for fluid and vit C (strawbs were never a regular part of her diet; it's not fruit that's done for her teeth)

Totally get that eating a bit of veg doesn't mean she's on the mend but, yesterday, it was one of those days where she could have gone either way today. I don't think she touched any food at all through the night on Wednesday.

In fact, Thurs 1st thing i syringed critical care. Then realised she could eat it well herself from a bowl. But that was the only thing she would eat yesterday.

I syringed more about midnight last night to get her through. So, to see her chowing down on the veg today is a welcome surprise!

I do feel cautiously optimistic that she will easily make it through til Monday and we won't be in an expensive Sunday or out of hours vet dilemma.


She's looking so much better than she did yesterday, that's for sure.


Will let you know how she gets on on Monday - but i do know it's not likely to be great news. Just need to see.
Click to expand...

Try syringing a part and then offering some normal food and finishing with more syringing. This way can stimulate eating a bit more independently again sometimes.

All the best. It is always difficult to kind of feel your way in the wake of a loss or when symptoms are not quite clear cut.
 
All much the same with Belle. Weight is holding up. She's out in the garden, not eating grass but she has tackled a corn on the cob and some critical care. Still supplementing with the syringe. She looks quite perky, moving about well. Just need to wait to see what the vet makes of her.
 
Slight update - Belle is very itchy. She's a teddy and no hair loss, can't see evidence of mites but her skin is dry.

I happened to have some gorgeous guineas cocoa neem melt AND the shampoo so Belle is having the full works! She seems to be enjoying it!
 
All good with Belle - we have mastered the syringe feeding and she's eating a fair quantity quite quickly. Weighed her pre feed this morn - 830g and post feed 865g so she has swallowed a decent amount there in one sitting.

She has been trying to eat hay too and is quite lively around the cage, not hiding away.

In a real dilemma for tomorrow at the vet - especially as i won't be there! I'm away in London. Hubby will take her.

I was thinking the kindest thing is to pts as she is obvs very poorly to be living on a diet of critical care and parsley. And she's on her own at 6½ yrs. Realistically, she is in the final phase of life.

But i also want to know what's going on with her - and if we put her through blood tests, then she would come home again tomorrow and how long do we keep her going when the likelihood is of a poor prognosis longer term.

I kept my previous elderly piggy going far too long - he was 600g in the end but he had a companion piggy.

The other issue is, hubby and i are away for 8 full days in America early September. My adult kids are here but i don't think they want the responsibility of making decisions about Belle.

It is very difficult. Piggies get so much cuter as they age (i think!) and Belle is super calm and cuddly. Her wee face is just so ernest and hopeful (just my human interpretation i know!)

So tricky!
 

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tabelmabel said:
Weird. I just wrote a post which posted fine. Then edited it to include a pic of Belle. And now it's awaiting moderator approval.

Is that a new thing to stop Boss Hog posting any more mankini pics?!
Click to expand...

There are new systems in place due to the new online safety act - a whole host of words, phrases, pictures, quotes, and many other things can now get cause a post to get caught in the approval queue and now have to await manual approval by us.
 
Piggies&buns said:
There are new systems in place due to the new online safety act - a whole host of words, phrases, pictures, quotes, and many other things can now get cause a post to get caught in the approval queue and now have to await manual approval by us.
Click to expand...
Ah, that makes a lot of extra work for you but spares us some xrated images!



Well - i am not going to London tomorrow after all. Because i live in Scotland and they have cancelled all trains North of Newcastle due to Storm Floris!

So i have managed to change my train til Tues (🤞 no line and cable damage)

Bit annoying as ours was a morning train and i don't think the storm gets going til noon.

Hopefully we will make it to the vet's ok. It is a 40 min drive and the appt's at 2.35pm so right at the height of the storm.

Belle's still pottering about and i think she'll hold out a while if we can't get there tomorrow. Hopefully we can make it ok but we can't risk life and limb for Belle's teeth i'm afraid.
 
HUGS

All the best for the vet. Why do piggies always pick up just before they are to see a vet?

It is always more difficult with an impending holiday; none of us likes to have to make these 'between a rock and a hard place' choices.

I have once or twice pts a piggy that was rather close to dying the day before we were off.
Yes, of course, you will feel guilty; but on balance I would have felt much worse had I come home to find them passed away and without me being there to rush them to the vet in case the dying process didn't go smoothly.

It's happened to me once that a piggy died from a twisted gut or sudden severe bloat in the time between the carer feeding for the day and us coming home from a mini-holiday; Helygen could not have been dead for too long.
I have personally struggled more with her being in agony with nobody there than I have with sending off a piggy a couple of days early but in comfort.

Listen to your heart how you feel on this when you come closer to the time if she is still in a critical/vulnerable state. There is no right or wrong with these kind of heart-wrenching decisions. You have to go with what you feel you can make peace with easier for the long term. This of course also applies to what your vet tells you... Nobody wants to call it shots for a beloved one, after all.

You may find this new guide of mine helpful. The same questions apply: Operation or Terminal Care/Euthanasia? - Helpful Questions to Ask Ahead or in Hindsight

Holding Belle and you in my thoughts.
 
Thanks for all of your supportive messages! Belle is at peace. The vet said there were 2 options - one was to sedate her and sort her teeth out but that would likely need repeating every 4-6 weeks. 2 - to humanely put her to sleep.

We decided on the latter - with her age and also now being on her own, it wasn't too tough a choice (tbh we'd been thinking this would be how it would go)

The vet didn't mention any underlying conditions - he said if she survived the procedure, she would start eating again. He said she had an ulcer on the roof of her mouth but that was all he mentioned.


So - they took her and sedated her first and we waited. And waited. I was beginning to think the vet had changed his mind.

Finally - 50 mins later, out she came in a little white box. She'd taken ages for the sedative to take effect.



The end of an era for me and piggies. That's 13 yrs - first with Stan and Benson.

Then Mike
Then Belle and Mabel

And then Ebony.


Sad day indeed.
 
tabelmabel said:
Thanks for all of your supportive messages! Belle is at peace. The vet said there were 2 options - one was to sedate her and sort her teeth out but that would likely need repeating every 4-6 weeks. 2 - to humanely put her to sleep.

We decided on the latter - with her age and also now being on her own, it wasn't too tough a choice (tbh we'd been thinking this would be how it would go)

The vet didn't mention any underlying conditions - he said if she survived the procedure, she would start eating again. He said she had an ulcer on the roof of her mouth but that was all he mentioned.


So - they took her and sedated her first and we waited. And waited. I was beginning to think the vet had changed his mind.

Finally - 50 mins later, out she came in a little white box. She'd taken ages for the sedative to take effect.



The end of an era for me and piggies. That's 13 yrs - first with Stan and Benson.

Then Mike
Then Belle and Mabel

And then Ebony.


Sad day indeed.
Click to expand...

HUGE HUGS

If it is any consolation to you, I would have made the same decision. With a big ulcer at the top of the mouth, she would not have started to eat immediately, even if they were getting teeth right. It would have been rather stressful for both sides to keep her going.

It's always so much harder when it is the end of an era because you are not just mourning Belle but all your others again as well.

Please be kind with yourself. You have made a number of piggies very cherished by giving them what they wanted from life: plenty of happy todays in your loving good care.
They have all been a great part of your life and of who you have grown into during those years; they will always remain a part of who you are.
Just that the scrapes and scars are on your heart - but also all the wonderful memories that will always be with you to comfort you, especially in the darkest of moments when a virtual cuddle or replaying their quirks is always available to you; even and especially if you are stuck in a medical machine!

If you find that you struggle more than expected, then you are welcome to open a thread in our new End of Life and Bereavement Support Corner where we offer ongoing community support.
 
Thanks so much @Wiebke - your lovely message made me cry (in a nice way!)

Your guides are so helpful and you have helped me many times over the years i have been on the forum. Thank you! X
 
tabelmabel said:
Thanks so much @Wiebke - your lovely message made me cry (in a nice way!)

Your guides are so helpful and you have helped me many times over the years i have been on the forum. Thank you! X
Click to expand...

Thank you.

Here is my grieving guide again, in case you would like to have another read through. Grieving can take you unawares and get you stuck in some rather weird mind loops.
Human Bereavement: Grieving, Processing and Support Links for Guinea Pig Owners and Their Children

Try to be proud of the care you have given your piggies and your journey with them. You haven't failed them in any way because your heart has always been in the right place. :)

We have always given grieving support on this forum but as of last October we have a dedicated place for owners to discuss end of life decisions and all the concerns that come with them as well as understanding bereavement support. ;)
 
I am so sorry you had to say goodbye to Belle, sending you hugs.
Letting them go is such a horrible decision to have to make and no matter how many times you have to do it it never gets any easier.
For what it's worth it's the decision I would have made under those circumstances.
Look after yourself in the coming days as you grieve for all those you have lost.
 
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