What to prioritise!?

[flopren]

Hi,

It seems all 5 of my pigs may be sick

Griff potentially has ringworm (awaiting test results), and Tiggy and Nell have bumblefoot. I thought the bumblefoot was improving - Nell's was mild and Tiggy's on anti-inflammatory medication for hers - but they've now got black scabs. They were rescued 2 weeks ago, so this hasn't occurred under my care. All my pigs are kept on dry, clean bedding and their cages are swept/cleaned daily. In addition, my eldest pigs, Sybil and Jovie, have developed excessive chalkiness in their wee. Sybil also did this weird thing whilst I was trimming her fur last week, apparently called "splooting". I already felt she was standing low to the ground/sitting whilst I was gently trimming (odd for her) and then twice she flopped onto her belly and stretched out her back legs. I know it's apparently a sign of safety and comfort, but she's 5 and in 4 years of having her, she's never done it before. Especially during a haircut. Jovie, by contrast, was "appropriately" tense and still, as I'm used to them both being as skittish rescue pigs. I'm concerned Sybil may have stomach discomfort, or weakness in her back legs - though she is still standing up at the cage bars and wheeking for food. I don't know if I'm highly sensitive to signs of illness lately with all that's happened with Tiggs.

I have a double appointment with the exotics vet on Thursday, but I don't know which pigs to prioritise first with the appointment the bumblefoot sows or S&J, with their chalky wee and Syb's unusual behaviour. The next time I can get in at the vets is mid April. Could a regular vet perhaps treat the bumblefoot? Though Tiggy, bless her, does have many additional health problems, which I fear complicates things if we saw a non-exotics-specialist. I feel so guilty, especially about temporarily sidelining S&J's care for a couple of weeks as they're my first babies. Please advise! Thank you.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

Please have the bumblefoot piggies seen as one lot with the same health issue. Once you get to scabs, bumblefoot is a serious battle.
@Viennese Furbabies and other members can help with treatment care tips.
Looking After Guinea Pigs With Limited or No Mobility


Please switch to weighing Syb first thing in the morning to monitor her hay intake. It makes over three quarters of the food intake but cannot be controlled just by eye. Loss of weight is generally a sign of illness, often of pain, as are her splayed legs.
If she is losing weight (because of the daily weight swing over the course of a day, we only take about weight loss from 50g onwards) or showing other signs of illness, then take her.


One off or occasional powdery chalky pees are nothing serious to worry about, as long as they are not gritty (containing crystals). It is the normal way for the body to excrete excess calcium.
If you have them regularly, please review your diet. It could be either too high or too low in calcium and just outside the balanced soft spot in the diet but you are not dealing with an acute illness until further symptoms develop. Do you filter your water?
A cluster of chalky pees can also happen at the onset of a sterile interstitial cystitis flare a day or three before the deep red porphyrine pees appear but we can rule that out in your case since sterile IC usually affects single piggies. How long have you had those chalky pees?
But this is an issue that is not yet 'ripe' for a vet visit. Chalky pees are not an indication for the presence of bladder stones although an unbalanced diet could eventually lead to one. I would recommend that you review your diet first and then see whether that settled the peeing issue.
Wiebke's Guide to Pees and Stones

You may also find these links here helpful:
Weight and Weight Loss Explained: BMI, Weighing, Poos and Feeding Support Levels
Early Signs Of Illness
Signs of Pain in Guinea Pigs

How Soon Should My Guinea Pig See A Vet? - A Quick Guide
Emergency and Crisis Care as well as Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment

I hope that this helps you?

 

[Merab]

So sorry that you’re in this situation.
Just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you

 

[Truffolo]

I'm surprised the rescue let poor Griff, Tiggy and Nell go to a new home with ringworm and then bumble foot in two pigs. Could you ask the rescue to perhaps help out by asking their vet to see your new pigs? I'm not sure about the wee issue and how much white chalkiness is a sign of illness. I think if it is very gritty and crystalline, then it may be an indication of sludge and an increased risk of stones, but most pigs have some white in their wee. But you know your piggies best and if you have noticed a change in them it might be a health problem. The splooting might be a response to having new pigs around and increased social stimulus. Perhaps she feels more confident with more girls around, but not sure. I would think that splooting would be a sign of flexibility rather than deterioration, but I'm not sure about it. I think piggies in pain tend to hunch up more than stretch out. I hope you can get it all sorted. I would zap the ringworm first, then bumble foot and any health issues lovely Tiggy might have, but you know your piggies best

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

I'm very sorry. Bumblefoot is a nightmare.
Did your vet prescribe an antibiotic?
Pain medication?

It's very good that you keep them on clean dry bedding. Do you do foot soaks?
Here is the link to my battle against Billie's bumblefoot. Maybe it can help.
Billie's paw

 

[Eriathwen]

I would have to agree that the 2 bumblefoot piggies should take priority, the others can be managed quite well at home until another appointment can be made in a few weeks.

It's entirely possible your splitting piggy could have arthritic changes in her legs given her age and she just felt more comfortable laying down. Ive had piggies stretching and laying down in discomfort and its very different to a comfort sploot. It's closer to writhing in pain, the stretching is exaggerated and repeated, in an urgent fashion, often rolling onto their side almost onto their back sometimes with a reduction in coordination. If she seemed relaxed otherwise, and the movements were calm and deliberate, I'd say she has likely just learned nothing bad is going to happen to her. Some pigs just take longer than others to realise!

Your chalky wees can be helped by checking your diet, I personally add flavoured waters (cucumber or mint soaked in water for example) alongside fresh clean water in an effort to increase water intake to help flush the system through, coupled with encouraging movement to agitate the sediment up from the bottom of the bladder to help it pass. I have Protexins cystopro capsules for flare ups of bladder issues as advised by my vet, it smells horrible but it contains an antioxidant derived from cranberries which seems to really help, coupled with a regular glucosamine supplement like Johnsons 4joints liquid or ArthriAid liquid on a more daily basis. But that should keep them comfortable until/if you wish to get them seen.

When the results for the ringworm come back you can go from there, I personally use an antifungal shampoo which works wonders alongside a good topical antifungal, remember not all fungal infections they get are ringworm so it may still require treatment, but unless it's been left for a long time it certainly can wait compared to bumblefoot which requires antibiotics very quickly, I also get given flamazine cream to put on the paw pads.

I hope everyone is feeling much better soon! Multiple poorly piggies at once is an absolute nightmare, and totally exhausting.

 

[flopren]

Thanks all - will reply properly tomorrow. Sybil and Jovie haven't met the new pigs yet - they're staying locally at my parents' whilst we have some minor works completed in our home. I'm not sure what the issue is with their diet. Their general daily diet is good quality Timothy and meadow hay, romaine lettuce and red pepper, plus Science Selective pellets. The RVN I rescued them from recommended "unlimited pellets" and daily readigrass now they're 5, as they tend to struggle to keep weight on, apparently. We do also filter their water, but could be more consistent. I'll re-educate myself re their diet and check out the links. Thanks.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks all - will reply properly tomorrow. Sybil and Jovie haven't met the new pigs yet - they're staying locally at my parents' whilst we have some minor works completed in our home. I'm not sure what the issue is with their diet. Their general daily diet is good quality Timothy and meadow hay, romaine lettuce and red pepper, plus Science Selective pellets. The RVN I rescued them from recommended "unlimited pellets" and daily readigrass now they're 5, as they tend to struggle to keep weight on, apparently. We do also filter their water, but could be more consistent. I'll re-educate myself re their diet and check out the links. Thanks.

Consider that they may actually want a bit more calcium in their diet, especially if they are used to high calcium levels. Calcium pees can be actually a sign that their calcium levels in the diet may be too low for an ideal phosphorus : calcium : potassium ratio where you live.

Why not add some herbs to their diet - they are a good source of a range of trace elements and vitamin C as well containing a bit of calcium? Whether it is a bit of fresh coriander/cilantro daily or some parsley or other herb once weekly or a slice of greens or bit of kale once weekly - both of them contain magnesium in addition to vitamin C and with restricted pellets feeding greens for instance once weekly or a little kale if you cook or roast some won't lead to bladder stones but adds important nutrients. Most of us also feed a daily slice of cucumber for hydration.
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[flopren]

I'm surprised the rescue let poor Griff, Tiggy and Nell go to a new home with ringworm and then bumble foot in two pigs. Could you ask the rescue to perhaps help out by asking their vet to see your new pigs? I'm not sure about the wee issue and how much white chalkiness is a sign of illness. I think if it is very gritty and crystalline, then it may be an indication of sludge and an increased risk of stones, but most pigs have some white in their wee. But you know your piggies best and if you have noticed a change in them it might be a health problem. The splooting might be a response to having new pigs around and increased social stimulus. Perhaps she feels more confident with more girls around, but not sure. I would think that splooting would be a sign of flexibility rather than deterioration, but I'm not sure about it. I think piggies in pain tend to hunch up more than stretch out. I hope you can get it all sorted. I would zap the ringworm first, then bumble foot and any health issues lovely Tiggy might have, but you know your piggies best

I know, me too. In my experience, good rescues rehabilitate. Unfortunately, my preferred local rescue is closed right now, which is why I went elsewhere. I think, because my first adoption experience with Sybil and Jovie was so positive, I was naive when approaching new rescues, assuming the best, and didn't do the proper checks I should have insisted on. Nell and Tiggy were put straight into my carrier, and the rescue was very busy, so I felt rushed in moving along with the adoption. I wish I'd insisted on having a good look at them and checking for health issues. Griff was adopted at another rescue, and as soon as he was taken out of his cage I saw the bald spot on his eye. I wish I'd said something at that moment, but because Sybil had a recent bald spot that cleared up on its own, I doubted myself and didn't say anything to the rescue til I got him home and examined him properly. A very tough and expensive lesson learned, but I'll know for next time. I wouldn't change it though - I'm happy to be mothering these pigs.

 

[flopren]

Consider that they may actually want a bit more calcium in their diet, especially if they are used to high calcium levels. Calcium pees can be actually a sign that their calcium levels in the diet may be too low for an ideal phosphorus : calcium : potassium ratio where you live.

Why not add some herbs to their diet - they are a good source of a range of trace elements and vitamin C as well containing a bit of calcium? Whether it is a bit of fresh coriander/cilantro daily or some parsley or other herb once weekly or a slice of greens or bit of kale once weekly - both of them contain magnesium in addition to vitamin C and with restricted pellets feeding greens for instance once weekly or a little kale if you cook or roast some won't lead to bladder stones but adds important nutrients. Most of us also feed a daily slice of cucumber for hydration.
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Ah I see, that's interesting, thank you. I've been so fearful of causing them diarrhoea that I've perhaps been too careful in varying their diets. I do mix it up a bit with occasional fruits and herbs (once weekly at most), and vary their daily veg somewhat, but stick to romaine and red pepper as staples.

 

[flopren]

I'm very sorry. Bumblefoot is a nightmare.
Did your vet prescribe an antibiotic?
Pain medication?

It's very good that you keep them on clean dry bedding. Do you do foot soaks?
Here is the link to my battle against Billie's bumblefoot. Maybe it can help.
Billie's paw

Thanks so much - yes, Tiggy is (Enrocare) and it did seem to improve the redness initially, but now both Tiggy and Nell have a black scab on one foot. I've never had to deal with Bumblefoot before and haven't needed to read up on it since first getting guinea pigs in 2022, so I'll need to re-educate myself.

 

[flopren]

I would have to agree that the 2 bumblefoot piggies should take priority, the others can be managed quite well at home until another appointment can be made in a few weeks.

It's entirely possible your splitting piggy could have arthritic changes in her legs given her age and she just felt more comfortable laying down. Ive had piggies stretching and laying down in discomfort and its very different to a comfort sploot. It's closer to writhing in pain, the stretching is exaggerated and repeated, in an urgent fashion, often rolling onto their side almost onto their back sometimes with a reduction in coordination. If she seemed relaxed otherwise, and the movements were calm and deliberate, I'd say she has likely just learned nothing bad is going to happen to her. Some pigs just take longer than others to realise!

Your chalky wees can be helped by checking your diet, I personally add flavoured waters (cucumber or mint soaked in water for example) alongside fresh clean water in an effort to increase water intake to help flush the system through, coupled with encouraging movement to agitate the sediment up from the bottom of the bladder to help it pass. I have Protexins cystopro capsules for flare ups of bladder issues as advised by my vet, it smells horrible but it contains an antioxidant derived from cranberries which seems to really help, coupled with a regular glucosamine supplement like Johnsons 4joints liquid or ArthriAid liquid on a more daily basis. But that should keep them comfortable until/if you wish to get them seen.

When the results for the ringworm come back you can go from there, I personally use an antifungal shampoo which works wonders alongside a good topical antifungal, remember not all fungal infections they get are ringworm so it may still require treatment, but unless it's been left for a long time it certainly can wait compared to bumblefoot which requires antibiotics very quickly, I also get given flamazine cream to put on the paw pads.

I hope everyone is feeling much better soon! Multiple poorly piggies at once is an absolute nightmare, and totally exhausting.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions and support

 

[Wiebke]

Ah I see, that's interesting, thank you. I've been so fearful of causing them diarrhoea that I've perhaps been too careful in varying their diets. I do mix it up a bit with occasional fruits and herbs (once weekly at most), and vary their daily veg somewhat, but stick to romaine and red pepper as staples.

My daily staples are gem, romaine/cos lettuce etc., peppers (any colour) and cucumber. Then I vary between coriander (about 3 times a week), a green bean, celery and once a week greens. There are occasional treats, which can include stronger soft-leaved herbs like parsley, dill, basil, lemon balm, but also a little kale, apple or a small piece of carrot and even a spinach leaf if I have leftovers every few weeks or so.

Guinea pigs have essentially three food groups:
- Grass fibre, i.e. hay and fresh grass (growing grass is high in vitamin C) with rich readigrass as only a treat in small amounts if wished for piggies with underweight issues. Grass fibre of some sort and shape should make ca. 80% of the daily food intake. Some hay contains more calcium than other. Many of our members feed more than one variety of hay.

- Fresh veg and herbs, fresh and dried forage, pellets and any treats (including dried veg or fruit) all together replace the supplementary role of the diet guinea pigs have evolved on.
This means that with reduced pellets, you have more leeway with higher calcium and oxalates veg and forage because it is the overall balance that counts. Even no added calcium pellets contain more calcium than kale, weight by weight. Pellets are also not essential for this group but you want to be careful in ensuring that your piggies get plenty of vitamin C in all their other food so most of us are still feeding a reduced amount. We recommend to feed pellets that are closer to a 'neutral' balanced ratio of 1 : 5 : 1 because it means less of a calcium peak coming from them.
Traditionally, there has been an emphasis on too much veg and pellets, then too much calcium but there hasn't been so much of a focus on the overall balance. And treats usually fall off the cart anyway...

- Water. The UK is majorly a hard water country and a lot of calcium and minerals come with it. The USA and Canada are mainly a soft water countries so you cannot transfer recommendation straight away. This is very often overlooked and can lead to problems.

But we have seen problems with piggies whose diet balance was out of kilter on the low side of the sweet spot (typically as calcium pees) as much as on the high side; many owners make the mistake and reduce the calcium content even further and unbalance the diet more.
Unfortunately, hay and water intake vary individually as well as between countries a lot, so there is no 'one rule fits all'.

You may find these guide links here helpful since things have been moving on a lot in recent years:
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets
Nugget Comparison Chart
A Comprehensive Hay Guide for Guinea Pigs (incl. providers in several countries)

See whether a bit more higher calcium veg and herbs in the diet can do the trick in making the calcium pees disappear. It may just need a little adjustment upwards to get there.

You are doing a great job in looking after all your patients and you will hopefully get there. They were lucky to find such a dedicated owner. I wish you all best for the vet trip.

PS: We are here for you for all your questions and concerns or as community for moral support and hanging out. Our forum ethos is friendly support.

 

[Truffolo]

I hope all goes well and the infections clear up