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When Is It Time?

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Lady Kelly

Lady Kelly

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If you have an ill piggy that cannot get better when do you know when the right time is to say goodbye?

For background of those that don't know Bea is around 6 years old and has kidney disease. This was found by coincidence when she had ovarian cysts and she has previously been treated for UTI once or twice in the past 4 years.

We found out about the kidney disease around October last year and have been keeping a watch over her and giving her extra snuggles, love (and veg!). She has lost considerable weight but is still looking happy, sprightly and one of the first down the ramp at veggie time.

However, we had her out for lap time last night and she was her normal self until she needed to poop. She cuddled up and I put part of the towel over her back to cover her over (she's always liked a bit of privacy lol). She did loads of poops all in one go (I'm talking 10-15 in a 1-2 minute time period) and there was a small amount of noise (not quite squeaking but heading that way). I think the disease is starting to cause her more discomfort but I don't know if she's at a stage where she would rather just go (be pts).

I really wish they could talk to us and let us know. Is there anyone who has been in a similar situation that can give any guidance on the right time to let her go?
 
My heart goes out to you - as slave to 7 I have yet to come to this,but I know one day I will.From what I have read on here in the past,if she still has a good quality of life and pain can be managed with meds that is good - when she has more bad days than good,then that is usually a sign that perhaps it might be kinder to let her go. xx
 
Oh you poor thing - it is probably the hardest thing about having pets, isn't it? Fortunately, I haven't yet reached that point with any of our piggies, but was in a similar situation with our beautiful dog 4 years ago. I was terrified that I wouldn't have the courage to admit that it was time. My brother reassured me that when the time came I would look into her eyes and know. I couldn't imagine that this could be possibly be true, but he was right. One night when I was sitting up with her she lifted her head and looked straight into my eyes and I knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was time. Our wonderful vet came out to us the next day so that she could go to sleep in our own home, without any stress, and I have never had a moments doubt that we did the right thing at the right time. I know this doesn't really give you an answer, except to say that when you have such a close bond you will feel when the time is right, and because you love her so much you will find the courage to let her go. Big hugs.
 
It's very difficult to say :( One of mine is a bladder pig & she squeaks when pooing rather than weeing & is on a daily dose of Metacam. Is yours on a small daily dose? If not I would try that first especially as she is eating well etc.
 
Only you can make that heavy decision, it all weighs on the quality of life that she has. Don't be overly worried about the amount of poos in one go, many of our piggies have done that. In fact there is a picture of Tufty in GPM where he is chilling and making a little pile by him.
 
Poppy'sMum said:
It's very difficult to say :( One of mine is a bladder pig & she squeaks when pooing rather than weeing & is on a daily dose of Metacam. Is yours on a small daily dose? If not I would try that first especially as she is eating well etc.
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No, so far she hasn't been put on any pain relief as up til now its not seemed like she's had any pain. I will give the vets a ring tomorrow and see if I can get a prescription for her.
 
HUGS

I am very sorry; I had to let Nia go when she was found to have progressive kidney failure in May at nearly 6 years old. I let her go there and then as she was in considerable pain despite being on a high dose of metacam and she had stopped eating just at the beginning of the weekend, so it took a bit longer until she could be seen by a specialist. She had deteriorated so quickly over the weekend that she'd started to struggle to swallow her hand feed and it didn't feel fair for me to put her through more of the same and through another vet trip for the sake of a just few more days of mainly suffering.

It is always a very difficult time when it is entirely up to you to call it a day when you are confronted with a progressive health issue. Generally, my advice is to listen to your heart; often your piggy will tell you when the time has come. The line is different for everyone of us. It is a balance between the piggy's wellbeing, our desire to keep it and the wish to spare it any unnecessary suffering. There is no right or wrong; it simply has to feel right for you and for your piggy so you can let it go with a bleeding heart, but a clear conscience.
 
Kelly my heart goes out to you. It's dreadful to have to make that decision and we've all agonised about it at some time. I'm a fan of the "better a day too early than a day too late " philosophy, but that's still no help in deciding when that day is. I still believe that if you are as in tune with your piggies as you are Bea will tell you when. It may be subtle but she'll let you know when she's ready. Hugest hugs to you xx
 
Thanks everyone, Vicki I know exactly what you mean. I am scared of leaving it too long and spending her last moments in pain and suffering. She's still a feisty lady so I'm hoping she will just give me the nod when she's had enough
 
Well I have had a chat with the vet today, they can't do a prescription without an appointment as its been too long since she was last seen. I'm in London all day tomorrow so have an appointment on Weds morning and hopefully then she'll have some pain relief to help her for the time being
 
Can't echo anything more than has been said above Kelly. You honestly will know, we have had 4 of our girls PTS and have known each time when they have had enough and don't want to carry on or illness has forced our hand. You have to balance there quality of life up, as long as they are free from pain and want to eat it is a good sign that they still want to be around.

With Bea and her poop issue some metacam may make the world of difference. Putt used to poo in piles of 6-8 and metacam easied her pain from this as she had inflamed bladder issues, so I would definitely say it is worth giving metacam a shot as it is anti inflammatory and pain killer in one.

Huge hugs and love to little Bea x
 
If it's kidney failure you may not be able to have Metacam. Metacam doesn't cause kidney problems, but can exacerbate the problems if they are already there (as in Bea's case). There are other pain relief options though. Hugs x
 
I'm sorry you have to go through this. I went through this with Gilbert. It was hard to know when the right time was. He was on a lot of medication but he'd have good weeks and occasional bad days.

I knew when it was time though because he started to refuse his medication and then started to refuse food. When he was eating and still moving around I didn't think it was yet time but I knew immediately when it was from the look on his face and in his eyes, and the next day I took him to be PTS. It was the hardest thing I've ever done and I still feel occasionally 'was it the right thing?' but I know it was. He passed straight away and peacefully.
 
Thanks for the info Jerrybelly, my vets tends to give loxicom these days over metacam but will mention it in relation to kidney problems as I don't know which vet I have been booked in with.
 
Jerrybelly said:
If it's kidney failure you may not be able to have Metacam. Metacam doesn't cause kidney problems, but can exacerbate the problems if they are already there (as in Bea's case). There are other pain relief options though. Hugs x
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That is a very good point, metacam is harsh on kidneys we have had success with Buprenorphine known as Buprecare (It's an opiate) with treacle when she had Lymphoma as she was on steroids and couldn't have metacam to help with her long term bladder problem it kept her pain free from her cystitis. Maybe discuss this with your vet x

EDIT Loxicam is the same drug just different name
 
Hi
My sympathies - This is probably one of the most difficult questions to answer as there really is no answer as every pig/owner is different.

Firstly - it helps to manage their care if you know whether the kidney disease is due to stones, a tumour or if there just a general enlargement of the kidneys? If there are stones then the biggest issue is to monitor to ensure the ureters leading from the kidney to the bladder don't get blocked. Periodic Xrays can help assess the progress of the disease if that is the case and if there is no urine output then this is an emergency.

Pain relief is essential. Long term metacam use is associated with causing kidney issues however as end-stage palliative care in guinea pigs already with kidney disease (e.g. kidney stones) it probably will not have a significant detrimental effect but ultimately it is the vet's call and may also depend upon the pig. The anti-inflammatory properties rather than necessarily the pain relief properties of metacam could be beneficial and certainly would be safer than giving steroids which lower the immune response and can lead to infections
Kidney pain is however very intense, especially if there are stones in the kidneys and my vet has used tramadol for pain relief in palliative care cases of both kidney disease and some tumours as we have found it to be more effective. It is an opiate so there are concerns it could slow down the guts but a gut stimulant can be given to assist (and in fact many of my pigs on tramadol have never had issues with gut stasis caused by the tramadol itself)

As to when it's time - I monitor my kidney disease pigs carefully and weigh them most days as well as periodically checking urine output for increasing levels of blood and/or protein with dipsticks. Providing they have adequate pain relief (and the dose will probably need to be increased over time) and are eating/drinking/pooping and peeing on their own...they could live very happy lives for at least a further 6-9 months (which is a lot of piggy years). Once they start refusing food/needing to be syringe fed that is when I go back to consult the vet about helping them to the Bridge.


However there are other things to watch out for too. Kidney disease also puts pressure on the heart and you may find fluid starts accumulating in the abdomen (signified by increase in weight), around the heart/in the lungs (hooting/clicky or laboured breathing and pale/bluish lips) or in the front paws/ankles - again at this point a vet assessment would be helpful as fluid retention/heart issues can be managed with diuretics and heart meds respectively. This happened with Muffin and she continued very happily for 15months until she needed an op for a very large bladder stone at which point we elected to PTS as she may not have survived the GA. Some of my terminally ill piggies were eventually helped to the Bridge not because of the underlying condition but because they developed a URI or other infection which they just couldn't fight despite antibiotics. Another one of my kidney stone pigs was very lively for 6 months post-diagnosis until one day she suddenly did a huge unexepected very bloody wee, laid her head on my lap and looked at me to say "it's time to go now mummy" . Another was helped to the bridge following an Xray that showed she had masses of stones in each ureter and would only have been a short time before a complete blockage occurred so we never brought her round from the GA.

So as you can see, there really is no definitive answer as every pig is different - but hopefully the pointers above will help you to know when the "right" time is.
Hugs
x
 
I am so sorry you are having to go through this. My friends rabbit unfortunately suffers from kidney disease, and is on a high dosage of metacam and has recently started on tramadol daily. He is a member in this forum - @Littlepig&co.

As I haven't been through this myself, I am unable to advise you on what to do for the best. Possibly have a chat with your vet about long term pain relief and then see how she goes on that? You could start on a small dosage and then increase it if needs be. You can obviously get a prescription from your vet and buy Metacam cheaper online from places like VetUK.

If she shows no improvements after that, then you are faced with the decision every pet owner dreads. But as Vicki said 'better a day too early than a day too late'

My heart goes out to you and I wish you both a huge good luck x
 
@sport_billy thanks for confirming the drug is the same. I will write down the name of the opiate incase I want to refer to it when I chat with the vet.

@Pebble thank you so much for the time taken to reply, having someone who has dealt with such similar issues is a huge help and you have certainly given me a few things to think about. When she was diagnosed I believe she had an xray which showed slightly enlarged kidneys (I seem to recall having it done to rule out stones but will double check with the vets as it is 9 months ago now and my memory does play tricks on me). It would be worth considering another xray really to make sure there isn't anything else at play. She isn't showing any heart signs at the moment thankfully but I will keep an eye out for these symptoms.
 
Ok well Bea was at the vets this morning looking bright eyed as usual. She was fiesty, bossy and did a big wee on the vets table pretty much straight away, no squeaking, no urine discolouration. She had a very thorough check over and is otherwise in very good health. She had a good look at the lady bits and said there could be the start of a polyp there but it was so small she couldn't tell for certain.

I have a very low dose of loxicom which I had to complete and sign a form for as the vet was aware that long term use could make renal issues worse. She also gave me some probiotic to try and help her poops come along a bit more easily and comfortably. I have been told to do 3 days of low dose loxicom and stop if she seems better in herself, otherwise I can up the dosage. The vet seemed to think that short bursts of loxicom if she is seemingly in pain would be better than long term pain relief at the moment.

We had a chat and the vet didn't even suggest pts as she could see how lively and happy Bea is. So for now its just making sure she's comfortable and seeing how she goes.
 
This is such a hard situation to be in, I feel for you. These little creatures really steel our hearts. I haven't yet had to do this with any piggies but I have lost two dogs in the past year and i have to say i think you just know when 'it's time'. I am glad to hear though that she has picked up and is happier, nothing worse than seeing one of your pets ill! *hugs*
 
Lady Kelly said:
She was fiesty, bossy and did a big wee on the vets table pretty much straight away, no squeaking, no urine discolouration.
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Vets seem to lack professionalism these days, no way to act in front of a customer....

Oh... Bea not the vet :)

Seriously excellent news for Bea and you, Love and cuddles to the Grey and White one please x
 
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