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CV26

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They can see each other and touch each other through the divider...it's just teeth that can't do any damage. Although they have had a good chew on hubby's wooden handiwork already!

We checked on them before bed. They both ate all their veggies and spent time jumping in and out of their hay trays, having a nose at each other through the divider. No aggressive signs and Spud was even doing a bit of zooming and popcorning.

This morning there were lots of poops around the divider so they at least haven't spent all night at opposite ends of the cage.
 

Swissgreys

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You are doing a great job dealing with these problems so early.
And it sounds like they are actually happier on their own, but with contact through the bars.
 

CV26

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I will be keeping an eye out for more positive behaviour particularly from Spud. Although he's a lot bigger than Dash (weight wise) he is the more nervous and shy one of the two. But last night he was pootling around quite readily even though hubby and I were standing next to the cage.
 

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Yes it’s the submissive pig that you want to watch. If he’s noticeably perking up after keeping them separate then that shows they’re better off living next to each other as neighbours. Hope it’s going ok!
 

CV26

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Hello everyone. So I'm pretty upset about the whole thing at the moment and after a rubbish nights sleep I had a pretty distracted day at work thinking about the boys.

Could do with some advice...

Have to admit I was a little confused at the next steps...just remove the divider and see what happens, go into a neutral setting and try a full on bonding, wait a bit longer etc. Think I've read too much and it's got all jumbled. So I took a deep breath and just went with moving the divider out. I didnt want to keep them apart unnecessarily and figured I had all evening to supervise.

It's been 20 mins max and here's what happened...

- initially they came straight together but this was probably because I had to move the hideys a little to free up 2 exit points

- there was then some bumping sounds (obscured by a hidey) suggesting they were having a grumping and one or both were flinching enough to hit the side of the cage and make it rattle. No other noise though but when I peered around I could see Dash was bunched back on his hind legs, although not rearing.

- they both had a little mooch round and ate some food in close proximity. Again no noises.

- they both went into one of the hideys and then there was loud teeth chattering, and sitting back on hind legs (no rearing).

I put the divider straight back in as I didnt want to let it go any further and figured apart through the bars for a bit longer with some advice from you lovely people was a better next move!

Do I try a more neutral option tomorrow with nothing but fresh fleece and a pile of hay in the play pen? Do I try again in the cage and if I do should I clean any of the bedding?

I'm also struggling to tell who might be edging it as most dominant. I think they're both willing to stand up for themselves but I cant really tell from what I've seen if there's a repeat offender for instigating.

I really dont want a full on fight if that can be avoided but I would like to be certain before I do anything more on the separation front, equally if there is a bond to be salvaged, I dont want to risk it by keeping them apart too long.

:help:
 

Piggies&buns

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I’m so sorry this has happened.

Reintroduction on neutral territory is best.

Was the one you think is the underpig, happier when they were separated? If so, then that is an indication of a dysfunctional bond. If you can say yes to the question, then I wouldn’t try to reintroduce.

If they are both vying for top piggy spot and nobody is backing down, tensions are rising and they have appeared happier when separate, then I would not try a reintroduction. I would put the divider back in and sadly have to say that things aren’t going to get better.

In case you’ve noticed then laying next to the divide - then that can be a sign of territory making, not a positive sign they want to be together.

You could try reintroduction in a neutral pen, but you would need to be very prepared to separate them.

Do read the guides to be sure of what you are seeing. We can obviously go by what you say rather than seeing the behaviour for ourselves.
 
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Siikibam

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:agr: I think the flying tackles and both not wanting to submit are what stand out for me. Given those two points I don’t know if I would try again.

Good luck and I hope it does work out. But just be prepared in case it doesn’t. And it’s not your doing, they may just not like each other enough. I’m pretty sure you’re a fabulous slave 😊
 

CV26

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Hard to tell the underpig at the moment.

Spud has been the more nervous one and he seemed a little more willing to come out in my presence last night when the divider was up...he just came back out a moment ago and sat eating for a minute or two but ran away again when I moved a little too quick for his liking. Dash has been the first to try things but equally he'll scarper when he's not sure...he is often the first to come back out again though.

None of the above probably means much in dominance terms but it does show a personality difference. Spud is currently a good 100g or so bigger than Dash too. Both have a URI but Dash seems to show more symptoms of it.

Understand you're going on my interpretation and I might be wrong in my descriptions. They have definitely both gone for each other, I'm sure it wasnt one pig lunging and the other trying to get away from what I've seen. One pig was more cornered but he didnt surrender. But my view hasn't exactly been clear.

Maybe a clean piece of fleece and a hay pile towmorrow might be the way to go to try and get a clear view once and for all just in case I've panicked. However they do value their hideys...if they dont have them could this give a false positive as their fear response and safety in numbers will override any other feelings?
 

CV26

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Thank you, I appreciate what you're saying and I am reluctant to try again if it means just more stress for them and me. And of course any risk of injury.
 

Piggies&buns

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Thank you, I appreciate what you're saying and I am reluctant to try again if it means just more stress for them and me. And of course any risk of injury.
It’s so sad when a bond breaks down, but they will be happier not being together. Some piggies are just better off as neighbours rather than housemates
 

CV26

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We never really set out to have more than 2 piggies. Last night I read through the various options for this scenario and whilst my pet loving heart would have an entire zoo, I'm not sure I can commit to 4 piggies. Although I do appreciate that it's 2 cages either way unless I give one boy up.

Not going to rush any decisions yet. Do have some questions about them as neighbours though as that'll be the state of play for a little while by the looks of things...

- do they now have floor and lap time separately? Figured lap time probably as they'd be in close proximity otherwise, but can they have floor time with a divide of some sort? Conscious of destabilising the bond further even if they aren't in the same cage.

- what about vets visits....obviously for now they'll both go but in separate carriers as they're still being treated for their URI, but what about future potential visits?

- what happens on holidays? We did have a friend lined up but really dont think she'll have room for 2 cages side by side or end to end. Could they go back into the split Ferplast (80x40cm each) as a temporary option for a few days if its cleaned properly first? I know that its tiny and it wouldn't be my preference at all but trying to look at all possibilities. Doubt we'll be having any big holidays anytime soon anyway but a few days every now and then will be on the cards. Do boarding places typically accommodate boar neighbours?
 

Siikibam

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Floor time and lap time all needs to be separate. So does transportation to the vet.

As for staying at a friend’s, would they be in a divided 80x40 or in a 80x40 each? Either way it’s not really ideal. How long would they be staying over for? I would say 1-2 days maximum but even then it’s really not suitable. Could she set up play pens next to each other? They are single but really still need tor minimum space.
 

Piggies&buns

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We never really set out to have more than 2 piggies. Last night I read through the various options for this scenario and whilst my pet loving heart would have an entire zoo, I'm not sure I can commit to 4 piggies. Although I do appreciate that it's 2 cages either way unless I give one boy up.

Not going to rush any decisions yet. Do have some questions about them as neighbours though as that'll be the state of play for a little while by the looks of things...

- do they now have floor and lap time separately? Figured lap time probably as they'd be in close proximity otherwise, but can they have floor time with a divide of some sort? Conscious of destabilising the bond further even if they aren't in the same cage.

- what about vets visits....obviously for now they'll both go but in separate carriers as they're still being treated for their URI, but what about future potential visits?

- what happens on holidays? We did have a friend lined up but really dont think she'll have room for 2 cages side by side or end to end. Could they go back into the split Ferplast (80x40cm each) as a temporary option for a few days if its cleaned properly first? I know that its tiny and it wouldn't be my preference at all but trying to look at all possibilities. Doubt we'll be having any big holidays anytime soon anyway but a few days every now and then will be on the cards. Do boarding places typically accommodate boar neighbours?
Everything needs to be separate. They can come out for floor time at the same time provided it is a divided space. If they are going to be free roaming in the room, then they will need to be let out at two different times.

An 80 x 40 cage, even temporarily is not suitable. It is well below the minimum of 120cm x 60cm for a single piggy .
 

CV26

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80 x 60cm each sorry...its a Ferplast 160 they have at the moment. 4 days possibly?
I know that is not ideal at all though so I'd probably look into boarding options as a priority for a better experience, or I'll need to get over my anxieties in having a pet sitter.

I dont think she'd have room for more than the 160cm and unfortunately it's not quite close enough for her to do daily visits. I will speak to her though the next time a holiday is on the cards - she might try and make it work as she loves piggies but cant have her own.
 

Siikibam

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It’s really not ideal. That is a long time to be in such a confined space. I would look at boarding if she can’t accommodate them in the minimum space they need.
 

CV26

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Done some room rearranging and I've got Dash in the Ferplast 160 and Spud in the old 120 for now. Have put the ramp and shelf parts in both cages in the hope they'll be able to get up there and interact through the bars.

I've put their pellet food on the shelf section so I'll be able to tell in the morning if they've figured out how to get up there. If they haven't we'll need to have a rethink on the space as the cage bases are different. Dont really want to buy a different set up until I know what the next steps will be though.

Dash is currently popcorning and Spud is eating hay.
 

Siikibam

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I would take the shelf bit out and just let them interact near the bars when they want. Sorry, it’s difficult b
 

CV26

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Already gone! Came in this morning and neither had been up there so did some redesigning.

Have used the 40cm end of the 160cm cage as that was designed to be divided off...so there's now a ramp from Spud's cage into this divider section.

He's already figured out how to use it, and they've met through the bars. Lots of rumbling, loud chattering, bum wiggling and even a couple of attempted nips. But then they went into their own bits.

Best I can do for now. The height difference between the 2 cages is awkward and we have a cat so putting cages on the floor / using the play pen in some way is not really an option.

At least they can see each other and have some contact without causing damage. And they each have a proper 120cm run with the 40cm being a sort of separate meeting space if they want to be there.
 
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