Bonding Sows

dabel101

dabel101

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Hi, i have three female guinea pigs, one mother sow, one baby sow and a playmate sow. We have had to seperate the mother sow from her playmate to have her babies, although they see eachother regularly on neutral ground. They have absolutely no problem on neutral ground so i thought i would re-introduce the playmate sow to her and the baby sow in their cage. The playmate, Mabel, was extremely dominant and left the other two quite scared. She didnt lunge much only a few times towards the baby. We then decided to stop the introduction as i found a scuff on the baby’s nose, could be a bite mark I'm not sure. What do i do now?
 
I'm not sure if I’ve read it right but youve put the playmate into the mum and baby’s cage? If so, then this will be seen as a territory invasion.
you need to introduce on neutral territory. If all goes well you need to thoroughly neutralise the cage they are all going to live in - new bedding, rearrange hideys etc and if the bonding in the neutral area goes well, move them all back to the cage. You can’t just put them all together in a cage belonging to another piggy. It all needs to be done on the same day. You can’t have them meet on neutral territory one day, and then put them directly in the cage the next as the bonding will have been interrupted so they need to start right back from the beginning the next time you put them together.
Mum will also be feeling very protective of the baby. There is also no guarantee that she will accept her playmate back
 
Did you put the companion into mum and babies’ cage? You can’t do that because it’s seen as an invasion of territory. It needs to be on neutral ground where none have been. When you say extremely dominant, what exactly was she doing?

Have a read of the link below and see where her behaviour sits. The hierarchy changes when one has pups, and it may not go back. May I ask why you separated them when mum was pregnant? Were there issues with their bond?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
 
Siikibam said:
Did you put the companion into mum and babies’ cage? You can’t do that because it’s seen as an invasion of territory. It needs to be on neutral ground where none have been. When you say extremely dominant, what exactly was she doing?

Have a read of the link below and see where her behaviour sits. The hierarchy changes when one has pups, and it may not go back. May I ask why you separated them when mum was pregnant? Were there issues with their bond?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Click to expand...

Please NEVER just put a piggy into a cage; they will be perceived as an intruder and will feel very defensive as a result. It is the perfect recipe for a fear-aggressive over-reaction from either side. Any bonding or re-bonding has to happen on neutral ground. Transfer back to the cage only happen once the crucial parts of the complex bonding process have been worked through (acceptance, leadership and rough hierarchy establishment) with only the 2 weeks post-intro dominance/group settlement phase left. The bonding process can fail at any of these stages.

Unfortunately once sows have made up their mind that they don't want somebody in their group, then you have had it. They are not going to change their mind again. :(

Here is more detailed information on the whole bonding process. Please be aware that re-bonding mothers after weaning is one of the most fraught bonding scenarios possible because the mother's status has changed through her having babies.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
 
Hiya, this is my first time with guinea pigs so it is a bit complicated! We put the mother sow into her playmates cage and her playmate become dominant, and then we put the playmate into the mother and the babies cage and it was the playmate that became dominant. Obviously now i know i need to clean the cages thoroughly and re arrange them, thank you for that.

We aren’t keeping the baby sow so she will be rehomed eventually. The playmate, Mabel, didnt lunge at the mother once, barely touched her only sniffer her a few times. It was the baby she had a problem with. Mabel and the mother are the best of friends on neutral ground. Mabel is very dominant no matter who’s territory it is.

When on neutral ground she only gets dominant when the mother, Doris, tried to share a hidey, so we make sure to put at least three hideys with the two of them. She never bites her tho, only a little disagreement, they have always been like this though, before doris has her babies.

I’m just not sure to carry on as the baby has a scruff mark or a bite on her nose.

(sorry this a long thread there’s just a lot of info)
 
Again though you cannot put them into each other’s cages. They can only have contact in a neutral territory while bonding. It’s only once they have gone through the bonding phases in one session that you put them back into a completely cleaned down cage together.

If you’re not keeping the baby then I wouldnt try to bond them as a trio. Leave mum and baby together and keep mabel in a separate cage by herself with interaction through the bars with Doris and the baby. Once the baby has gone, then try to rebond mabel and Doris. Mabel and Doris may never want to live together again though, even once the baby has gone, you will just have to see how it goes.

when bonding in a neutral territory, you don’t put hideys in. just a pile of hay. Only use hideys when they have accepted each other and have gone back to their cage.
 
That is what i have been doing since the babies were born, letting doris and mabel see eachother through the bars.

Oh thank you i didnt understand that i shouldnt put any hideys! They were in the garden for about two hours today as it was sunny surprisingly enough, (i checked the temperature and it was over 15°C) . Both of them were out of their hideys and popcorning about, is this a good sign?

Mabel was also sniffing doris’ behind quite often when i put her in doris’ cage, i’ve read somewhere that this is a good sign?
 
:agr: If you’re rehoming the baby then leave her with mum and bond with Mabel once she’s gone. I also wouldn’t put Mabel and mum together at all until you’re bonding them. It’s not how they work, no matter how much they seem to get on when on neutral territory.
 
Oh another note i would like to ask! I am going to get a new cage for them during Christmas time, would it be wise to buy the cage sooner so i could do the bonding in the new cage as it is completely new and easier to re-arrange?
 
dabel101 said:
That is what i have been doing since the babies were born, letting doris and mabel see eachother through the bars.

Oh thank you i didnt understand that i shouldnt put any hideys! They were in the garden for about two hours today as it was sunny surprisingly enough, (i checked the temperature and it was over 15°C) . Both of them were out of their hideys and popcorning about, is this a good sign?

Mabel was also sniffing doris’ behind quite often when i put her in doris’ cage, i’ve read somewhere that this is a good sign?
Click to expand...

Those are good 'getting to know each other' signs for the very start of the complex bonding process. You can find them in our very detailed illustrated bonding guide, which takes you through all the bonding stages in detail with the characteristic behaviours and typical dynamics (good and and bad).

Just don't push it too much too early. Do not try to bond them while the baby is still with mum if you have found another home for them because a mother will be more protective of her babies and less accepting of her partner. A lot depends on whether the mother is the dominant or the submissive partner of the pairing. A submissive mother is generally less willing to return to being an under-sow while this is not quite such a big problem with a dominant mother whose partner is not losing out on anything by returning to her previous status. It also very much hinges on how good the relationship is in the first place.
 
dabel101 said:
Oh another note i would like to ask! I am going to get a new cage for them during Christmas time, would it be wise to buy the cage sooner so i could do the bonding in the new cage as it is completely new and easier to re-arrange?
Click to expand...

That would be fine provided you don’t put either of them in the cage until the time you actually rebond them - so once the baby has got a new home.
all you would need to do is pick your day to do the bonding, put some hay in the cage and put the piggies in. If they are accepting and want to be together, then you can just leave them in there And add hideys later.

If it doesn’t go well, then one can live in the new cage and the other will have to go back to a separate cage and they would then need to live as neighbours.
 
Honestly i cannot thank you enough for this! Made me much less anxious thank you!:D
 
dabel101 said:
Oh another note i would like to ask! I am going to get a new cage for them during Christmas time, would it be wise to buy the cage sooner so i could do the bonding in the new cage as it is completely new and easier to re-arrange?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can do that. Are you planning on a traditional cage or a C&C grid cage?
You can find a baby bonding video in the bonding guide where I am using a cage for bonding. It is really worth taking the time to read and look at the guide links!

Sourcing Conventional Cages And Hutches (for large traditional cages, zooplus.uk is the best place to get them cheaply - the 160 cm cage is currently offered on discount)

C&C grid cages are more versatile and can be much more easily extended in all directions (side and up) or adapted for awkward spaces.
All About C & C Grid Cages Around The World
 
Hiya, i am planning on using a traditional hutch! I’ll be having a read later thanks!
 
Well haha, had a read through old threads in boredom! I can update you that we decided to keep the baby sow and we named her Olive! The three of them happily live together with no arguing! Well except when there is only one piece of lettuce left that they all want😅.
 
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