Dental - Anorexia

[Dilly's Piggies]

Our 2 year old boar Theodore had dental surgery on Monday as he could not eat anything, he was losing weight for the past 3 weeks, he went from 1450g down to 1100g and then suddenly stopped eating altogether 4 days ago. His front teeth were misaligned, slanted and overgrown, I don't know what the molars looked like but they were overgrown too.

We took him to the vet, he had dental surgery under anaesthesia to file down the teeth, he came home that evening but still did not eat for the whole night, he was not sent home with any medication or advice. Due to him not eating, we had to take him back the next day, they decided to keep him in to give him medication and fluids, he is still there now, on his 2nd day in hospital, getting lots of different meds to try and get him eating.

We visited him today and he looks better than he did before he was admitted, but he is still not eating, pooping or peeing, and now he has lots of swelling under his jaw/bottom incisors. I am concerned they have filed his teeth too short, they said they filed them down as short as possible without hitting the sensitive structures in the tooth, from what I understand this is a bad thing and likely the reason he still can't eat? His top incisors look good but his bottom ones are filed extremely short, they do not meet at all, in a normal position there's a huge gap between his top and bottom teeth.

Theodore has a great appetite and is trying so hard to eat, he is starving, he just simply can't eat and we don't know why. He seems to be 'gumming' his food, he cannot grab food, you have to physically push the food into his mouth, past his tongue to his back molars for him to be able to eat it, he cannot do it himself but at least he is trying. He is also sticking his tongue out a lot, like he cannot control his tongue and manoeuvre food around his mouth properly, is this because the bottom incisors are too short?

We are so worried about him and desperate for advice?

 

[rome_italy]

Unfortunately I cannot help you with any advices... but I am next to you in this bad adventure...
hugs!

 

[DM030819]

Pigs don't get anorexia. They stop eating because either they can't or it's too painful. And in your case it sounds like both.

Unless your vet and vet nurse staff are very experienced in handfeeding pigs then I highly recommend your bring him home to feed him yourself.

I don't want to frighten you but if he hasn't pooped or peed for a few days there is a risk of his digestive system shutting down and he will die. He needs to be fed, and alot to get his system going again.

If he were mine I'd bring him home, with Metacam and Zantac and/or Metoclopromide and start to aggressively handfeed him. You can use a combination of Critical Care and his regular pellets wet down into a consistency you can get into a 1ml syringe (with the end cut off). The vet can provide the syringes.

Also, offer his lots of his regular food so he can try to eat. Give him wet pellets, lots of hay (cut into smaller pieces if you can) and small pieces of chopped up veg. I give small long thin pieces of veg and small cubes so they can try both. Some can pick up thin pieces, some cubes. Also offer him lots of pieces of food by hand.

Depending on what the vet has done will determine what he can eat. If it's just his front teeth that is the mess then he should be able to chew his veg if you help him get it in his mouth. If it's all of this teeth then he won't want to eat so you'll have to force feed him.

The vet will probably claim that he's best off staying there as they have 24/7 staffing but in my experience he'll get checked every few hours and be given a couple of syringes of food. The fact that he's not pooping shows they're not feeding him enough.

The next few days will be tough but if you can feed him little and often then you have a chance.

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

Pigs don't get anorexia. They stop eating because either they can't or it's too painful. And in your case it sounds like both.

Unless your vet and vet nurse staff are very experienced in handfeeding pigs then I highly recommend your bring him home to feed him yourself.

I don't want to frighten you but if he hasn't pooped or peed for a few days there is a risk of his digestive system shutting down and he will die. He needs to be fed, and alot to get his system going again.

If he were mine I'd bring him home, with Metacam and Zantac and/or Metoclopromide and start to aggressively handfeed him. You can use a combination of Critical Care and his regular pellets wet down into a consistency you can get into a 1ml syringe (with the end cut off). The vet can provide the syringes.

Also, offer his lots of his regular food so he can try to eat. Give him wet pellets, lots of hay (cut into smaller pieces if you can) and small pieces of chopped up veg. I give small long thin pieces of veg and small cubes so they can try both. Some can pick up thin pieces, some cubes. Also offer him lots of pieces of food by hand.

Depending on what the vet has done will determine what he can eat. If it's just his front teeth that is the mess then he should be able to chew his veg if you help him get it in his mouth. If it's all of this teeth then he won't want to eat so you'll have to force feed him.

The vet will probably claim that he's best off staying there as they have 24/7 staffing but in my experience he'll get checked every few hours and be given a couple of syringes of food. The fact that he's not pooping shows they're not feeding him enough.

The next few days will be tough but if you can feed him little and often then you have a chance.

I know pigs don't get anorexia, but that's what the vet has 'diagnosed' and admitted him with, from every thread I've read about dental surgery it's useful for pigs to be sent home with pain medication at least, but Theodore wasn't given anything, I'm very positive he is in pain and the swelling is from surgery damage, all of his teeth, front and back were filed, I just know the bottom incisors are too short, but according to the nurse there it doesn't bother pigs too much if they are cut too short.

He is getting a cocktail of medications since being there (loxicom, zantac, baytril, emeprid, fluids) but they have not syringe fed him at all yet, the whole time he has been there, I'm really shocked at this to be honest, since he cannot eat they should be MAKING him eat... They said they will start syringe feeding now but whether they will or not, who knows! I would much prefer to have him home where we can make sure he is getting fed and checked on all the time, we are hoping he will come home tomorrow, I think he has a better chance at home too.

 

[DM030819]

I would honestly call them now to see if you can bring him home. If they haven't fed him yet then they really don't understand pigs. The longer he is left without food then the lower his chances are.

It's so hard to fight with vets, I've had to do it before so I understand how you probably feel like you can't do anything.. They wouldn't release one of my pigs until he ate so I had to fight my way in on a Saturday morning and feed him in front of their face.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

A lot of things concern me here. What do they mean by the 'sensitive structures' of the teeth? Why is his tongue coming forward? Why is there swelling under his jaw/bottom incisors? Sorry, but none of this sounds right and if the teeth have been filed correctly, he should be eating for himself and there shouldn't be any swelling. Please get your piggy away from there as it doesn't sound like they are providing the supportive care he needs. The fact that they haven't syringe fed him suggests they have no experience of dealing with guinea pigs. His body will close down if it doesn't get food passing through it very soon.

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

A lot of things concern me here. What do they mean by the 'sensitive structures' of the teeth? Why is his tongue coming forward? Why is there swelling under his jaw/bottom incisors? Sorry, but none of this sounds right and if the teeth have been filed correctly, he should be eating for himself and there shouldn't be any swelling. Please get your piggy away from there as it doesn't sound like they are providing the supportive care he needs. The fact that they haven't syringe fed him suggests they have no experience of dealing with guinea pigs. His body will close down if it doesn't get food passing through it very soon.

That's exactly why I'm here asking for advice, we don't feel like they have done it right and have made him worse, but we've never had a dental piggy before so we don't know what's right and wrong as far as teeth go, but when it comes to syringe feeding we all know piggies should eat constantly and if they can't eat they should be force fed. We are picking him up tomorrow regardless of whether they think he's ready, he is much better off at home with people that love him and can give him proper supportive care! Given the situation, what medication should he come home with, if any?

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

A lot of things concern me here. What do they mean by the 'sensitive structures' of the teeth? Why is his tongue coming forward? Why is there swelling under his jaw/bottom incisors? Sorry, but none of this sounds right and if the teeth have been filed correctly, he should be eating for himself and there shouldn't be any swelling. Please get your piggy away from there as it doesn't sound like they are providing the supportive care he needs. The fact that they haven't syringe fed him suggests they have no experience of dealing with guinea pigs. His body will close down if it doesn't get food passing through it very soon.

They also said on the phone today that sometimes dental work can cause the teeth to grow 'backwards' and she thinks that's what's wrong with him but he'll need an xray under anaesthesia again, if this is the case he will need to be put to sleep. What does that even mean 'backwards'?!

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

They also said on the phone today that sometimes dental work can cause the teeth to grow 'backwards' and she thinks that's what's wrong with him but he'll need an xray under anaesthesia again, if this is the case he will need to be put to sleep. What does that even mean 'backwards'?!

Teeth do not grow 'backwards'. Please get your guinea pig away from there. They clearly have no knowledge.

 

[eileen]

I really hope you can get a second opinion ,i agree with all the above.I'm sorry you are experiencing this.hope your piggie can be looked after at home.

 

[DM030819]

@CavyConnoisseur If you have decided to leave him there overnight (which I suggest you don't) please ensure you call them when they open to arrange collection, or even better be there for them opening.

Being at home will at the very least make him more comfortable and you can aggresively handfeed for as long as needed.

It sounds like he's going to need another dental to fix what this current vet has done. We always recommend Simon at Cat and Rabbit but he's not in until next week.

You will have to weigh up whether Theodore will be okay to wait if you're able to feed him enough or whether you'll have to go elsewhere. I know there are a few others on the forum that have used other vets for dentals and had okay results. If Theodore needs urgent help then it might be worth going to one of the other vets.

 

[DM030819]

@CavyConnoisseur Have you managed to speak to/visit the vet yet?

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

I think you need to get him out of the vets and start some intensive syringe feeding. You need to get him stable as he has been left far too long without food. Then next week, you should get him up to Cat and Rabbit Clinic and get Simon to sort things out. I know you say it is a long way, but I have seen far too many people waste time and money with no success whatsoever and a piggy becoming weaker and weaker by not getting to Simon. Simon does more guinea pig dentals in a week than a lot of vets do in their whole career. Guinea pigs won't eat unless their teeth are perfect, unlike rabbits who are able to eat once any spiky bits are removed. You haven't got time to waste!

 

[Janice C]

So sorry that you are suffering from poor Dental work at your Vets. My poor Willow still isn't eating other than handled Critical Care and Fibreplex and she is 3 days postop. Back to Vet yesterday and given 3 injections , pain relief and Metoclpamide but no better!
Not sure if I'm being cruel keeping constantly feeding her as feel she's not going to make a recovery. So difficult with piggies as so few Vets are Rodentologists. Hope things improve for you.
Janice

 

[DM030819]

@Janice C You're the opposite of cruel. You need to feed her when she can't eat for herself. It is cruel to let her suffer and starve to death.

I want to point out that Rodentologists aren't vets. They have absolutely no vet qualifications and so are not allowed to use any medications/conduct surgeries for pigs lawfully. I know this as I started the course and became a Rodent Health Advisor years ago, I've been shown how to use the dental equipment but there is no way I would ever do it. Pigs need to be seen by a vet.

Simon Maddock who has been mentioned above is the most experienced guinea pig dental vet in the country. He is not a rodentologist and has absolutely no association with the CCT and BAR.

If your pig has been treat by a rodentologist I highly recommend you take her to a qualified vet instead,

 

[Janice C]

@Janice C You're the opposite of cruel. You need to feed her when she can't eat for herself. It is cruel to let her suffer and starve to death.

I want to point out that Rodentologists aren't vets. They have absolutely no vet qualifications and so are not allowed to use any medications/conduct surgeries for pigs lawfully. I know this as I started the course and became a Rodent Health Advisor years ago, I've been shown how to use the dental equipment but there is no way I would ever do it. Pigs need to be seen by a vet.

Simon Maddock who has been mentioned above is the most experienced guinea pig dental vet in the country. He is not a rodentologist and has absolutely no association with the CCT and BAR.

If your pig has been treat by a rodentologist I highly recommend you take her to a qualified vet instead,

No she has been treated only by Vets! It
S just that I've read that Rodentologists sometimes know more about guinea pigs than some Vets!
I'm just worrying about the length of time she has been unable to eat for herself? The first couple of days she did try to pick up grass or finely chopped hay but shows o
No interest now.

 

[DM030819]

I agree that sometimes rodentologists do, even I know more than some vets, haha. But I'm not a vet so it's always necessary to use a vet for treatment for a pig.

 

[Janice C]

I agree that sometimes rodentologists do, even I know more than some vets, haha. But I'm not a vet so it's always necessary to use a vet for treatment for a pig.

Good that you did the Rodentologists course. Wish there was some in Scotland! I've already changed Vets to try and find an excellent one.

 

[Claire W]

I have no advise but I hope your piggy is now home and that he will be ok xx

 

[Flutterby]

Fingers crossed you manage to sort your little one out with a more experienced vet x

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

I think you need to get him out of the vets and start some intensive syringe feeding. You need to get him stable as he has been left far too long without food. Then next week, you should get him up to Cat and Rabbit Clinic and get Simon to sort things out. I know you say it is a long way, but I have seen far too many people waste time and money with no success whatsoever and a piggy becoming weaker and weaker by not getting to Simon. Simon does more guinea pig dentals in a week than a lot of vets do in their whole career. Guinea pigs won't eat unless their teeth are perfect, unlike rabbits who are able to eat once any spiky bits are removed. You haven't got time to waste!

Theodore belongs to my sister so isn't mine but I did tell her I wanted to take my Lottie to Simon for her spay and it would be good to take Theodore to him also as I do know he is a great piggy dentist, if anyone can fix him it's Simon.

Theodore is sadly still at the vet, day 3 now, thankfully they are syringe feeding him and he's doing better but he's still thin and struggling to eat, he is getting stronger each day in small steps. Today they anaesthetised him again to xray his jaw, sadly there's lots of swelling which they think is infection and they said his tooth roots have started growing down back into his jaw, this is what they meant by saying teeth can grow 'backwards'. Can you confirm this is an actual thing?

One vet said it can be managed as long as he's not in pain and has regular dental work, but another vet there said he will need to be PTS. He is currently in a lot of pain due to the surgery trauma but is still maintaining a fighter attitude and wants to eat, we are definitely not putting him to sleep as long as he wants to live, he will see Simon before any decision like that is made for a second opinion.

This is such a stressful situation, we wanted him to come home today.

 

[DM030819]

So why didn't the vet let him come home?

 

[eileen]

i would try and get to simon if possible,it will save you money and probably your piggies life.a difficult decision.Jerry my dental piggie was taken in to have his teeth filed at a local vet,Jerry did not eat for himself,and £250 later he was no better,vet wanted him PTS.Jerry was seen by simon,he had an abcess and he needed his teeth filed 3 times and antibiotics,he ate for himself and the whole proceedures came to less than £150.00,best treatment Jerry had.x

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

So why didn't the vet let him come home?

They wanted to do the anaesthesia/xray today to see what is going on with his teeth, they said it's better to keep him in so he can get his medications injected. We tried to argue but they were reluctant to let him go

 

[Pawz]

And the longer they keep him and attempt more things the higher the cost goes up. I'd honestly tell them you want him back because you are taking him to a Guinea pig dental issue specialist for a second opinion.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Tooth roots are meant to grow into the jawbone. If they didn't, the teeth would fall out!

I've lost count of the amount of times piggies have come to TEAS, supposedly with elongated roots. They've never caused an issue yet, as once the crowns of the teeth are filed to the correct length, the piggy eats just fine xx

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

And the longer they keep him and attempt more things the higher the cost goes up. I'd honestly tell them you want him back because you are taking him to a Guinea pig dental issue specialist for a second opinion.

Yeah we've already spent around £250 with all his consults, surgery, anaesthetics, medications, staying there for 3 days etc, every day the price keeps going up and there's very little improvement. Simon would probably charge less than that and have him fixed in a few hours!

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

Tooth roots are meant to grow into the jawbone. If they didn't, the teeth would fall out!

I've lost count of the amount of times piggies have come to TEAS, supposedly with elongated roots. They've never caused an issue yet, as once the crowns of the teeth are filed to the correct length, the piggy eats just fine xx

Ah so this condition is called elongated roots? I haven't heard of it before and the vets didn't really explain, so it was all very confusing. This has only happened after surgery though, he did not have this before, the vet said it can happen after dental surgery?

 

[rome_italy]

Theodore belongs to my sister so isn't mine but I did tell her I wanted to take my Lottie to Simon for her spay and it would be good to take Theodore to him also as I do know he is a great piggy dentist, if anyone can fix him it's Simon.

Theodore is sadly still at the vet, day 3 now, thankfully they are syringe feeding him and he's doing better but he's still thin and struggling to eat, he is getting stronger each day in small steps. Today they anaesthetised him again to xray his jaw, sadly there's lots of swelling which they think is infection and they said his tooth roots have started growing down back into his jaw, this is what they meant by saying teeth can grow 'backwards'. Can you confirm this is an actual thing?

One vet said it can be managed as long as he's not in pain and has regular dental work, but another vet there said he will need to be PTS. He is currently in a lot of pain due to the surgery trauma but is still maintaining a fighter attitude and wants to eat, we are definitely not putting him to sleep as long as he wants to live, he will see Simon before any decision like that is made for a second opinion.

This is such a stressful situation, we wanted him to come home today.

My opinion: it is clear that these vets are not able to do anything else and maybe it was also their first time they have seen a similar piggie patient... Now one of them is considering this piggie even a thorny patient...
and in the meanwhile the bill increases...
it is the same old story: when a vet is unable to fix things, never suggests to run to another more competent collegue... (and it happens the same for us human patients...).
Don't PTS this piggie until you talk with another good vet (and nobody can say your piggie is in a "lot of pain"! lot-of-pain means a visible distress, high heartbeats, no hunger at all, and so on...)

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

My opinion: it is clear that these vets are not able to do anything else and maybe it was also their first time they have seen a similar piggie patient... Now one of them is considering this piggie even a thorny patient...
and in the meanwhile the bill increases...
it is the same old story: when a vet is unable to fix things, never suggests to run to another more competent collegue... (and it happens the same for us human patients...).
Don't PTS this piggie until you talk with another good vet (and nobody can say your piggie is in a "lot of pain"! lot-of-pain means a visible distress, high heartbeats, no hunger at all, and so on...

Yeah exactly, I thought if there was nothing else they could do, they would refer us to a vet that does know what to do, but they aren't offering anything like this, probably because they want to milk more money out of us whilst Theo isn't getting the help he needs. From what I can gather they are at a dead end and can't offer him any further help, if this is the case they should just admit it and send us elsewhere. I may actually ask if they can refer him to Simon tomorrow, I would like him to look at the xrays to see if he can do anything before we travel there.