Engel's Herd

[Piggies&buns]

Post clear pictures of their genitals and we can aim to help. however, sexing is a hands on thing. you need to look inside the slit - if there is a fleshy seal just inside then that is a sow; straight down for a boar. You need to also feel for a penis ridge.

good to have a plan in case they fall out - but hopefully they won't! however, if they did fall out and you needed to separate them permanently, then a 2x3 each isn't big enough for long term - you'd need a 2x4 each for them to live separately.

 

[Engel]

Post clear pictures of their genitals and we can aim to help. however, sexing is a hands on thing. you need to look inside the slit - if there is a fleshy seal just inside then that is a sow; straight down for a boar. You need to also feel for a penis ridge.

good to have a plan in case they fall out - but hopefully they won't! however, if they did fall out and you needed to separate them permanently, then a 2x3 each isn't big enough for long term - you'd need a 2x4 each for them to live separately.

Getting a photo is proving difficult. Does the ridge feel like a bump? I feel a bump (big bump) If I push on it gently looks like a penis starts to emerge. Looking in the slit, I think it's straight to the anus, don't see anything else.

3×2 should be ok temporarily though? Until I find another table or something to support the grids

 

[Piggies&buns]

Getting a photo is proving difficult. Does the ridge feel like a bump? I feel a bump (big bump) If I push on it gently looks like a penis starts to emerge. Looking in the slit, I think it's straight to the anus, don't see anything else.

3×2 should be ok temporarily though? Until I find another table or something to support the grids

yes it’ll feel like a bump. The slit going straight down. You absolutely do need to be sure yourself but a bump and the slit going down are what you are looking for to confirm a boar.

in the case of emergency and temporary separation, yes.

 

[Engel]

yes it’ll feel like a bump. The slit going straight down. You absolutely do need to be sure yourself but a bump and the slit going down are what you are looking for to confirm a boar.

in the case of emergency and temporary separation, yes.

Is there anyway to hold a pig without it squirming? There's no one who can help photo or hold piggy. Both have a ridge though. I'm going to give them time to chill out then try to get photos again

 

[Piggies&buns]

piggies will squirm as most don’t like being handled. Wrapping them in a towel or holding them in a fleece tunnel or hidey can help them feel more secure - but neither of those things are going to be helpful when it comes to taking a picture as it’ll obscure the area your trying to photograph and just be harder if you’re trying to do it alone anyway

This is the sexing guide https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/illustrated-sexing-guide-for-all-ages.156297/

 

[Engel]

Ok I'm in a panic!

The pig I was told was a boy is a girl! Can pigs have galastop to stop pregnancy?

Getting on the phone to the vet asap

 

[Siikibam]

What is galastop? The only way to stop pregnancies has to neuter boars or spay sows. The latter is very invasive so only find for medical reasons.

Did you check for a fleshy seal just inside the slit? What did the vet say? Last question, where did you get them from again?

 

[Engel]

What is galastop? The only way to stop pregnancies has to neuter boars or spay sows. The latter is very invasive so only find for medical reasons.

Did you check for a fleshy seal just inside the slit? What did the vet say? Last question, where did you get them from again?

Galastop is a drug used to terminate pregnancies up until a certain point. Can only be used on certain animals though.

So I checked and didn't see the seal. They're meant to be 9-10 weeks so using the knowledge that they're fertile from 3/4 weeks, she could already be pregnant as the boars weren't seperated. She is slightly pear shaped and is eating loads in comparison to Chunk. Laying down a lot.

Someone who had an unexpected litter

Not phoned vets yet waiting for mum to get back (I can't drive and I'm high risk)

 

[Piggies&buns]

Galastop is a drug used to terminate pregnancies up until a certain point. Can only be used on certain animals though.

So I checked and didn't see the seal. They're meant to be 9-10 weeks so using the knowledge that they're fertile from 3/4 weeks, she could already be pregnant as the boars weren't seperated. She is slightly pear shaped and is eating loads in comparison to Chunk. Laying down a lot.

Someone who had an unexpected litter

Not phoned vets yet waiting for mum to get back (I can't drive and I'm high risk)

I'm pretty sure that’s not at all possible. If she has been with a boar for all the time, then you need to prepare for pups.

 

[Engel]

I'm pretty sure that’s not at all possible. If she has been with a boar for all the time, then you need to prepare for pups.

Sorry you've lost me. What's not possible?

I've done the maths and counted the weeks. Going off the average that they have their first heat at 4 weeks, I could be seeing pups as soon as next week! Or as late at January (1st-2nd week).

Ive read all the pregnancy thread on here and I'll be re-reading it. Is it worth feeding a handful of alfalfa hay to her until after they've weaned? As she's still growing herself as well as pups?

I'm going to baby proof Oreos side of the cage with 13mm wire mesh on the insides of the grids.

I've seperated them, they each have a 2×4 now. Will this be big enough for mum and babies up to 3 weeks (before I need to seperate any boars)?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Sorry you've lost me. What's not possible?

I've done the maths and counted the weeks. Going off the average that they have their first heat at 4 weeks, I could be seeing pups as soon as next week! Or as late at January (1st-2nd week).

Ive read all the pregnancy thread on here and I'll be re-reading it. Is it worth feeding a handful of alfalfa hay to her until after they've weaned? As she's still growing herself as well as pups?

I'm going to baby proof Oreos side of the cage with 13mm wire mesh on the insides of the grids.

I've seperated them, they each have a 2×4 now. Will this be big enough for mum and babies up to 3 weeks (before I need to seperate any boars)?

Sorry - you asked if it was possible to stop a pregnancy using a medication - that is what I was referring to when I said it’s not possible

A 2x4 will be ok for the short term.

alfalfa can be given but it’s also not necessary. Do their pellets contain alfalfa at all? If so, then I would not give extra

 

[Engel]

You asked if it was possible to stop a pregnancy using a medication - that is what I was referring to when I said it’s not possible

Ahhhh ok no point in going to the vets then asking for it.

Shall I start adding small amounts of alfalfa hay to her diet then? Or unlimited pellets? To help with calcium and protein?

How else should I baby proof the cage?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Ahhhh ok no point in going to the vets then asking for it.

Shall I start adding small amounts of alfalfa hay to her diet then? Or unlimited pellets? To help with calcium and protein?

How else should I baby proof the cage?

I edited my post to answer the other questions - my edit and your reply must have crossed!

this is the pregnancy diet guide https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/pregnancy-and-nursing-diet.109377/. It will answer all your questions.

just ensure babies cannot get out or stuck trying to get out.
ensure dad cannot get in - including by going over grids, climbing on houses and jumping over etc

 

[Engel]

I edited my post to answer the other questions - my edit and your reply must have crossed!

this is the pregnancy diet guide https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/pregnancy-and-nursing-diet.109377/. It will answer all your questions.

just ensure babies cannot get out or stuck trying to get out.
ensure dad cannot get in - including by going over grids, climbing on houses and jumping over etc

Ah ok.
No alfalfa in the pellets, just Timothy.
I'll look at the thread. Thanks
What size gap can baby pigs get through?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Ah ok.
No alfalfa in the pellets, just Timothy.
I'll look at the thread. Thanks
What size gap can baby pigs get through?

the 13mm mesh youre planning will be fine. (Theyd get out of a normal C&c grid)

 

[Engel]

Ordering more grids as chunk can get over the grids. I've put parts of cages to block him for now but hopefully the grids should arrive soon. Won't be able to have him castrated until his testes have descended. I feel awful seperating them but they seem happy still. Eating, popcorning and wheeking

 

[Siikibam]

Ordering more grids as chunk can get over the grids. I've put parts of cages to block him for now but hopefully the grids should arrive soon. Won't be able to have him castrated until his testes have descended. I feel awful seperating them but they seem happy still. Eating, popcorning and wheeking

I would wait that out. If your girl turns out pregnant then neutering will depend on what she has. Fingers crossed she’s not but there’s a likelihood she is.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’d wait until any babies are born to enable you to make decisions on living arrangements and neutering based on their sexes

 

[Engel]

I would wait that out. If your girl turns out pregnant then neutering will depend on what she has. Fingers crossed she’s not but there’s a likelihood she is.

Well the idea was neuter Chunk so eventually he can live back with Oreo. But I'll have to wait a couple of months anyway so if Oreo is pregnant I'll know the sexes of the pup(s) by that time anyway.

I'm treating her as if she's pregnant and keeping watch for the next 10 weeks. I'm not feeding her alfalfa. I've upped her pellets a tad, having 2tbs rather than one which should be ok? She's getting extra pepper for vit c just in case too. Unlimited hay still as well.

With boar pairs, having an age gap can go in your favour. Does this also mean with slight age gap of a couple of months or when it's 1+year between the two? Thinking if she has a boar pup, I'll be able to introduce him to Chunk once weaned. But nervous as he's going through the teen stage soon is that going to be an issue?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Well the idea was neuter Chunk so eventually he can live back with Oreo. But I'll have to wait a couple of months anyway so if Oreo is pregnant I'll know the sexes of the pup(s) by that time anyway.

I'm treating her as if she's pregnant and keeping watch for the next 10 weeks. I'm not feeding her alfalfa. I've upped her pellets a tad, having 2tbs rather than one which should be ok? She's getting extra pepper for vit c just in case too. Unlimited hay still as well.

With boar pairs, having an age gap can go in your favour. Does this also mean with slight age gap of a couple of months or when it's 1+year between the two? Thinking if she has a boar pup, I'll be able to introduce him to Chunk once weaned. But nervous as he's going through the teen stage soon is that going to be an issue?

yes youll have to see what happens. If youve got two boar pups, then it may be the pups stay together and chunk is neutered and moves back in with Oreo, but equally it may work better for chunk and one baby to be together and the other baby to wait until old enough, be neutered and move back with mum. It’s all going to come down to pup numbers, sexes and character compatibility.

go by what the guide says on feeding, particularly pellets are the one thing you don’t want to overdo too much

while having two teen boars together can be tricky, the ultimate key is character compatibility, age is far less relevant, age gap or not. Both my boys were teens at the same time (theres just a couple of weeks between them age wise) and were absolutely fine because they have compatibility. However, we see posts from people with same age boars who fight due to not having compatibility.

 

[Engel]

yes youll have to see what happens. If youve got two boar pups, then it may be the pups stay together and chunk is neutered and moves back in with Oreo, but equally it may work better for chunk and one baby to be together and the other baby to wait until old enough, be neutered and move back with mum. It’s all going to come down to pup numbers, sexes and character compatibility.

go by what the guide says on feeding, particularly pellets are the one thing you don’t want to overdo too much

while having two teen boars together can be tricky, the ultimate key is character compatibility, age is far less relevant, age gap or not. Both my boys were teens at the same time (theres just a couple of weeks between them age wise) and were absolutely fine because they have compatibility. However, we see posts from people with same age boars who fight due to not having compatibility.

Yes I understand character compatibility. How will I know if the male pups get on character wise? Do I have to wait until teen stage? Or will they start to show signs of not being compatible earlier on?

I'm more worried about Chunk trying to hump one of the babies and crushing them.
We'll work it out when the time comes.

Now the guide mentions weighing babies. Won't Oreo reject them if I handle them? She's comfortable with me hand feeding her but handling her is a no no. I can stroke her though while she's eating though. But will she get upset if I handle babies?

 

[Siikibam]

If there are two boars, you can put both in with dad once separated. Then you just watch and see which two get on best. It’s better to split accordingly before they reach their teens, so you’d have about 3 months in which to decide.

 

[Piggies&buns]

As Siikibam has said, it'll take some time before you can figure out who gets on best. You can keep boars together as a trio until the youngsters hit teens so you've got time to find out.
Chunk will not crush the babies at all, you really don't need to worry.
No she won't reject them. Knowing their weights, for health purposes but particularly if they are boars is essential.

 

[Engel]

As Siikibam has said, it'll take some time before you can figure out who gets on best. You can keep boars together as a trio until the youngsters hit teens so you've got time to find out.
Chunk will not crush the babies at all, you really don't need to worry.
No she won't reject them. Knowing their weights, for health purposes but particularly if they are boars is essential.

That's ok then. Tbh Chunk hurting them and Oreo rejecting them is my biggest concern. I know that keeping an eye on weights is important.

I've baby proofed Oreos cage with 13mm mesh. Correx is arriving Monday.

Both wheeking and popcorning now

 

[Engel]

go by what the guide says on feeding, particularly pellets are the one thing you don’t want to overdo too much

According to the guide a sow under 6 months should have no more than 40g less is preferred. So 1tbs is ~6 grams. 2tbs would be around 12 grams. She should be alright with that right? Considering its well below the 40g I mean.

Why is alfalfa so hard to find? Went to p@h to see if they had any and couldn't find it in store?

 

[Piggies&buns]

According to the guide a sow under 6 months should have no more than 40g less is preferred. So 1tbs is ~6 grams. 2tbs would be around 12 grams. She should be alright with that right? Considering its well below the 40g I mean.

Why is alfalfa so hard to find? Went to p@h to see if they had any and couldn't find it in store?

don’t get too hung up on it, you don’t want to feed more than normal as you don’t want big babies. Hay is still the most important part of the diet.

don’t worry about it then, they don’t need alfalfa.

I'm going to tag in the pregnancy experts for further advice. @VickiA @Wiebke

 

[Wiebke]

Well the idea was neuter Chunk so eventually he can live back with Oreo. But I'll have to wait a couple of months anyway so if Oreo is pregnant I'll know the sexes of the pup(s) by that time anyway.

I'm treating her as if she's pregnant and keeping watch for the next 10 weeks. I'm not feeding her alfalfa. I've upped her pellets a tad, having 2tbs rather than one which should be ok? She's getting extra pepper for vit c just in case too. Unlimited hay still as well.

With boar pairs, having an age gap can go in your favour. Does this also mean with slight age gap of a couple of months or when it's 1+year between the two? Thinking if she has a boar pup, I'll be able to introduce him to Chunk once weaned. But nervous as he's going through the teen stage soon is that going to be an issue?

Hi!

You feed a perfectly normal grass hay based diet; please DO NOT up the pellets. In all honesty, we haven't seen any difference whatsoever in births where a pregnancy was known or expected and in surprise births. The extra amounts are truly minute and already largely covered in a good diet and on good care.
What makes a big difference is if the normal diet and care is sub-standard - sadly that is very often the case with breeders, especially with for sale breeders and with people who aim for cheap pets and spending as little money and care as possible or in the case of rescues with new intakes from a bad background. In this case, extra alfalfa is the quickest way of making up lost ground. But if you are already ahead of the game, then there is no reason to throw things at your girl that are not needed.

The most important pregnancy preparation is to aim at your mother being as fit and healthy as can be and to keep her as normally active as possible; this will trickle down to any babies and makes a real difference in their overall survival chances. Don't feed more pellets which distract from her as much hay as possible and replace a bigger volume of hay with a comparatively smaller amount of mostly empty fillers - you are aiming at healthy babies of ideal weight and not at large babies that are at risk of getting stuck with potentially fatal consequences.

I hope that that makes sense?

Please take the time to carefully read our diet recommendations at the top of the pregnancy information link and keep in mind that it is the general diet that is the key and not the little tweaks you make in the last three weeks when the babies are showing and growing fast. The tweaks are not so much for the babies but to protect the mother's own bodily reserves during the stage when her most of what she is eating is diverted towards the pups just before giving birth and while she is nursing them in the first weeks after birth.
Pregnancy, Mother & Baby Care Guides

 

[Engel]

Hi!

You feed a perfectly normal grass hay based diet; please DO NOT up the pellets. In all honesty, we haven't seen any difference whatsoever in births where a pregnancy was known or expected and in surprise births. The extra amounts are truly minute and already largely covered in a good diet and on good care.
What makes a big difference is if the normal diet and care is sub-standard - sadly that is very often the case with breeders, especially with for sale breeders and with people who aim for cheap pets and spending as little money and care as possible or in the case of rescues with new intakes from a bad background. In this case, extra alfalfa is the quickest way of making up lost ground. But if you are already ahead of the game, then there is no reason to throw things at your girl that are not needed.

The most important pregnancy preparation is to aim at your mother being as fit and healthy as can be and to keep her as normally active as possible; this will trickle down to any babies and makes a real difference in their overall survival chances. Don't feed more pellets which distract from her as much hay as possible and replace a bigger volume of hay with a comparatively smaller amount of mostly empty fillers - you are aiming at healthy babies of ideal weight and not at large babies that are at risk of getting stuck with potentially fatal consequences.

I hope that that makes sense?

Please take the time to carefully read our diet recommendations at the top of the pregnancy information link and keep in mind that it is the general diet that is the key and not the little tweaks you make in the last three weeks when the babies are showing and growing fast. The tweaks are not so much for the babies but to protect the mother's own bodily reserves during the stage when her most of what she is eating is diverted towards the pups just before giving birth and while she is nursing them in the first weeks after birth.
Pregnancy, Mother & Baby Care Guides

Wow that's a lot of information. Thanks

Meadow and Timothy are perfectly fine and provide her with everything she needs then? That makes my life so much easier! Does that mean that any pups will be fine on meadow and Timothy? How do I go about them when they're born? Unlimited pellets or just a tbsp per pig?

 

[Wiebke]

Wow that's a lot of information. Thanks ☺

Meadow and Timothy are perfectly fine and provide her with everything she needs then? That makes my life so much easier! Does that mean that any pups will be fine on meadow and Timothy? How do I go about them when they're born? Unlimited pellets or just a tbsp per pig?

Maedow and timothy are perfect for well cared for mothers and healthy pups. You can supplement with a handful of alfalfa hay daily (the hay is better than pellets because you cut out the fillers).

In the 3-4 weeks of nursing it is basically offer some more of everything because mother is very hungry having to feed extra mouths and those extra mouths soon start nibbling and increasingly eating away at all foods. During this time, most of what mum eats, goes straight towards the babies to give them a head start and not her.

You can find more information in the link in my last post. We cover the whole period until baby boars needs to be separated at 3 weeks/250g (whichever happens sooner) with very practical step-by-step guides, which have been specifically written for owners without previous experience. We have also included further information like scan and x-ray embryo pictures, baby movement videos, birthing videos as well as first baby days picture and video diary, which will all give you hopefully a good idea what to expect, what you can do, need to prepare and what you need to look out for and see a vet asap.
It is worth bookmarking the link, reading and then re-reading as you go along. We are deliberately leaving out all the confusing breeder 'tips' and are concentrating on what a new owner can realistically see and really needs to keep an eye on to ensure good care and safe conditions as much as possible. We have tried to keep it as simple and practical as we could.
Here is the access link: Pregnancy, Mother & Baby Care Guides

 

[Engel]

I've weighed both pigs today as I've almost had them a week.

Chunk (boar) is now 407 grams; he's gained 72 grams.

Oreo (sow) is now 645 grams; she's gained 64 grams.

While Oreo was out I felt her tummy. One one of her sides I can feel a ball/blob that doesnt seen fixed to the spot? Couldn't feel anything on the other side but she wasn't very happy with me touching her tum if I'm honest.

NOTE: I didn't dig my fingers into her sides, I applied hardly any pressure, I stroke my hamster with more force if that's anything to go by.

I also picked her up buy getting her to walk into her carrier (thought it'd be good practice for weighing and vet visits). I supported her whole body while lifting her and wrapped her loosely in a towel to keep her calm but after 5 mins she'd had enough, so I put her back into her carrier then into her cage. I was very careful.

Both are now stuffing their faces. Given them both a small piece of broccoli stem to munch on which they're both thrilled about. Considering that the veg I've been feeding them for the week have been low calcium, a treat like broccoli should be ok once a week?