Engel's Herd

[Merab]

Sorry that Eileitheia is giving cause for concern.
Hope you can find a reason for that and she will soon recover

 

[Engel]

Hi @Wiebke, Can you have a look at the photos of the babies bits please. She has 2 pups. I believe one is a boar and the other a sow.

Right I have managed to take a few pictures and hopefully they're ok. If not I will be charging up my camera so hopefully there will be better photos within the week but this is the best I can do for the time being. As mentioned before I think I've got a boar and a sow, what do you think?

This one I believe is a sow. There is a fleshy arrangement when pressure is applied to the slit.

View attachment 159795

This one I'm not 100% sure. I think its's a boar. Let me know what you think!

View attachment 159796View attachment 159797

(Please excuse the mess in the back ground; spot cleaning)

I've tried taking more recent photos but it's proving difficult.

She gained over 100g then 4 days ago she started losing it. She's still heavier than what she was when she gave birth. I'm going to give her some crit care every few hours and see how she does.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi @Wiebke, Can you have a look at the photos of the babies bits please. She has 2 pups. I believe one is a boar and the other a sow.



I've tried taking more recent photos but it's proving difficult.

She gained over 100g then 4 days ago she started losing it. She's still heavier than what she was when she gave birth. I'm going to give her some crit care every few hours and see how she does.

OK - in that case I would not worry so much because any short term weight gain in the fat reserves is coming off a lot quicker than if it is from the body itself. The fact that she is will weighing more than she did at birth is great. Normally a sow in the later stage of nursing is either just about holding her weight or losing a little. So she is still doing better than most.

 

[Engel]

Sorry that Eileitheia is giving cause for concern.
Hope you can find a reason for that and she will soon recover

I'm hoping it's just because she's just unable to eat enough to sustain her weight and feed the babies at the same time. They're both big babies! Both over 150g now and they're only 1 week (and 2 days old).

 

[Merab]

If it’s helpful when I have a piggy who needs weight boosting, as well as the Critical Care feeds I leave a a small dish (ramekin) of the feed in the cage so it can be accessed any time.
Mine love a small piece of banana mashed into it.
Another favourite is grated carrot or sweet potato with raw oats.
These help until a vet visit and for ongoing support until piggy recovers

 

[Engel]

OK - in that case I would not worry so much because any short term weight gain in the fat reserves is coming off a lot quicker than if it is from the body itself. The fact that she is will weighing more than she did at birth is great. Normally a sow in the later stage of nursing is either just about holding her weight or losing a little. So she is still doing better than most.

Ok. Is it worth me feeding babies a bit of critical care to take some of the strain off mum? Or just monitor them for now?
They're eating hay, veggies and pellets as well as nursing at the moment. So just wondering if mum needs a little help as she's still growing herself.

 

[Engel]

If it’s helpful when I have a piggy who needs weight boosting, as well as the Critical Care feeds I leave a a small dish (ramekin) of the feed in the cage so it can be accessed any time.
Mine love a small piece of banana mashed into it.
Another favourite is grated carrot or sweet potato with raw oats.
These help until a vet visit and for ongoing support until piggy recovers

I have left a small dish with some in so she can have some of she wants. She's never had banana so I don't know how she'll react to that. At the moment she's taking the crit care quite nicely so I'll keep that one up my sleeve for if we have problems. I'll keep those suggestions in mind, thank you

 

[Wiebke]

I'm hoping it's just because she's just unable to eat enough to sustain her weight and feed the babies at the same time. They're both big babies! Both over 150g now and they're only 1 week (and 2 days old).

You have two whoppers. While I would not want to call it from your pictures, I think you have got one son - the last picture is showing a nice round penis button. So the best possible outcome seeing that you have both parents.

You can still start letting dad meet his son for short spurts to ease acceptance and over-excitement at separation time. Babies are far to agile and fast to come to any harm; they have to hold still for that. It can well be that you may have to remove the boy before mummy comes into season again around day 15/16; it is going to be a rather close race, seeing how well the babies are doing.

 

[Wiebke]

Ok. Is it worth me feeding babies a bit of critical care to take some of the strain off mum? Or just monitor them for now?
They're eating hay, veggies and pellets as well as nursing at the moment. So just wondering if mum needs a little help as she's still growing herself.

You can give the babies a little taster so they learn to accept the taste early on, which will make feeding it later on in illness easier but they most definitely don't need support feeding. Keep in mind that they will be switching to an adult diet more with every passing day and will only top up on the milk but no longer depend on it. The gradual weaning process will start immediately after this shift in the eating.

I would also offer the critical care in a bowl so your mummy can eat as much as she likes. She should still eat as much hay as possible. As long as she doesn't end up with a lot more off her weight than 50g less than her birthing weight by the end of week 3, Eileithya is doing FINE. When I gave my initial comment I didn't take her very unusual 100g weight gain after birth into account; this has now simply come off due to the demand on the milk bar and has instead allowed your babies to have a head start. You are now just back to where most mothers are at this stage of lactating.

 

[Engel]

You have two whoppers. While I would not want to call it from your pictures, I think you have got one son - the last picture is showing a nice round penis button. So the best possible outcome seeing that you have both parents.

You can still start letting dad meet his son for short spurts to ease acceptance and over-excitement at separation time. Babies are far to agile and fast to come to any harm; they have to hold still for that. It can well be that you may have to remove the boy before mummy comes into season again around day 15/16; it is going to be a rather close race, seeing how well the babies are doing.

They were quite big babies to start with too! I couldn't believe it. The bigger one weighed 118g. I still don't know how she managed to get it out!

I was thinking I may need to seperate before the 3 week mark. Doesn't mum come into season within 24 hours after birth? If so that'd mean potentially this time next week.

I'll try and get clearer photos for you. It might end up being a video as they're so wriggly!

To be home they have grown up very quick. Within 24hrs they were tasting everything and very active By day 3 they'd worked out how to use the water bowl and water bottle. By day 5 they were eating noticeably more solids. Even now they're eating solids more than nursing if I'm honest.

I've started adding different veggies now (in small amounts). Things that Eileithyia ate during the pregnancy but I stopped feeding during the first days after birth. Things like cabbages, kale and broccoli really. They're already eating quite a variety of veggies those were just the last ones to try. (Eileithyia and Jupiter only at apples when they came to me, they too now eat a whole host of veggies. I could pick almost anything off the piggy safe veggie list and they'll now eat it no problem.)

Ah that's such a relief. I'll definitely keep an eye on her. I should have mentioned the 100g gain at the start.

Won't meeting and seperating the boars be frustrating for them? They see each other everyday as there c&c cages are joined to allow them to interact anyway.

 

[Siikibam]

I think it’s a way to introduce them to the boar - the only time I believe it’s acceptable to put together and separate.

Keep weighing and just separate at the time stated - 250g or 3 weeks, whichever comes first. In your case it may be the weight guideline that comes first.

 

[VickiA]

Sorry. I’ve not been around much. Only just seen a tag. Looks like @Wiebke has answered your questions x

 

[Wiebke]

They were quite big babies to start with too! I couldn't believe it. The bigger one weighed 118g. I still don't know how she managed to get it out!

I was thinking I may need to seperate before the 3 week mark. Doesn't mum come into season within 24 hours after birth? If so that'd mean potentially this time next week.

I'll try and get clearer photos for you. It might end up being a video as they're so wriggly!

To be home they have grown up very quick. Within 24hrs they were tasting everything and very active By day 3 they'd worked out how to use the water bowl and water bottle. By day 5 they were eating noticeably more solids. Even now they're eating solids more than nursing if I'm honest.

I've started adding different veggies now (in small amounts). Things that Eileithyia ate during the pregnancy but I stopped feeding during the first days after birth. Things like cabbages, kale and broccoli really. They're already eating quite a variety of veggies those were just the last ones to try. (Eileithyia and Jupiter only at apples when they came to me, they too now eat a whole host of veggies. I could pick almost anything off the piggy safe veggie list and they'll now eat it no problem.)

Ah that's such a relief. I'll definitely keep an eye on her. I should have mentioned the 100g gain at the start.

Won't meeting and seperating the boars be frustrating for them? They see each other everyday as there c&c cages are joined to allow them to interact anyway.

The meetings will be too short to count as bonding; 10-15 minutes before mummy is looking for the pup is just about what you can get away with.
But in my own experience it can really help with both baby acceptance and working out some of the initial overexcitement out of a 'manly' boar's system, which makes for a somewhat smoother proper bonding. In your case, it is more the second that my advice is trying to cap just a little; I am not worried about acceptance at all, seeing how happy dad is with the babies. BUT it is in your discretion and you do not have to do it if you are not feeling comfy. I am sure that your boys are going to get on like a house on fire anyway.

The only other time where short meetings every few days can really make a positive and not negative difference to bonding is with extremely fear-aggressive piggies with a very patient and not over-sexed companion where you can do a bonding just up to the point where the problem piggy is starting to go on overload but the other party is still willing and the piggies are living next to each other with full interaction through the bars. But since that type of bonding takes experience to read some very subtle body language, it is not something I would generally recommend - and it doesn't always work out, either. It is not something I would recommend without a plan B, C or even D.

 

[Engel]

I think it’s a way to introduce them to the boar - the only time I believe it’s acceptable to put together and separate.

Keep weighing and just separate at the time stated - 250g or 3 weeks, whichever comes first. In your case it may be the weight guideline that comes first.

Ah I see I thought it was generally a bad idea. I'll start little meetings tomorrow then.

Yes I think the weight guideline will come first. I have heard that some can reproduce at 200g? How true is that? I always thought it was 250 as mentioned in Wiebkes guide.

 

[Wiebke]

Ah I see I thought it was generally a bad idea. I'll start little meetings tomorrow then.

Yes I think the weight guideline will come first. I have heard that some can reproduce at 200g? How true is that? I always thought it was 250 as mentioned in Wiebkes guide.

We haven't come across a case of 200g boars impregnating mother but we do recommend if in doubt to remove a very early starter that has been rumbling for several days just before mummy is coming into season. This is however rather rare.

We have also only come across mother-son pregnancy (by people finding us too late or not following advice) in less than a handful of cases on here in the time we have been going. Our advice follows that of best UK rescue practice with literally hundreds of pregnancies every year. If there was a significant change to make in our advice, I would be to hear of it pretty quickly.

 

[Engel]

The meetings will be too short to count as bonding; 10-15 minutes before mummy is looking for the pup is just about what you can get away with.
But in my own experience it can really help with both baby acceptance and working out some of the initial overexcitement out of a 'manly' boar's system, which makes for a somewhat smoother proper bonding. In your case, it is more the second that my advice is trying to cap just a little; I am not worried about acceptance at all, seeing how happy dad is with the babies. BUT it is in your discretion and you do not have to do it if you are not feeling comfy. I am sure that your boys are going to get on like a house on fire anyway.

The only other time where short meetings every few days can really make a positive and not negative difference to bonding is with extremely fear-aggressive piggies with a very patient and not over-sexed companion where you can do a bonding just up to the point where the problem piggy is starting to go on overload but the other party is still willing and the piggies are living next to each other with full interaction through the bars. But since that type of bonding takes experience to read some very subtle body language, it is not something I would generally recommend - and it doesn't always work out, either. It is not something I would recommend without a plan B, C or even D.

I don't think I'll have any issues with them during introduction or meetings, not sure when baby Apollo reaches his teens though but I won't know until the time comes.

 

[Wiebke]

I don't think I'll have any issues with them during introduction or meetings, not sure when baby Apollo reaches his teens though but I won't know until the time comes.

That is always the big question... Although father and son bondings seem to have generally a pretty good success rate unless both or the son are very dominant.

 

[Engel]

That is always the big question... Although father and son bondings seem to have generally a pretty good success rate unless both or the son are very dominant.

Out of the 2 pups the baby sow, Dysnomia, is more dominant. She kinda pushes Apollo about but he seems chill about it. He doesn't seem too bothered to be honest so assuming Apollo stays like this I doubt there will be any issues. Jupiter seems quite chill as well or at least he was when he lived with Eileithyia. Time will tell. Fingers crossed

 

[VickiA]

All sounds to be going really well. They are huge babies!

 

[Engel]

Hi all thought I'd update you.

Mum and babies are doing well. Haybox order arrived yesterday and they've been happily tucking into it.

I'm 90% sure I have a boar and sow but lacking confidence as I got it Jupiter and Eileithyia wrong. I'm really struggling to get a decent photo but my camera won't even focus . Silly question but when is the penis able to pop out? I won't be 100% settled until I've seen it. They're currently 12 days old

 

[Siikibam]

I’ve never been able to pop by boys’ bit out but have seen it ‘hanging’ out on occasion. Check for the fleshy seal inside the slit or the penis ridge m. You can use mum as a template so to speak.

 

[Engel]

I’ve never been able to pop by boys’ bit out but have seen it ‘hanging’ out on occasion. Check for the fleshy seal inside the slit or the penis ridge m. You can use mum as a template so to speak.

Thank you. I have just checked again and was able to pop it out slightly so I definitely think that Apollo is boy. Certain that Dysnomia is a girl as she is a mirror image of mum. Apollo is is mirror image of dad minus the obvious testes. He has a ridge while Dysnomia is flat.

I've been giving mum a little bit of help with critical care and it's she is now gaining weight nice and steadily.

Eileithyia (mum) - 675g
Apollo (boar pup) - 182g
Dysnomia (sow pup) - 178g
(Jupiter gets weighed every Friday but he was 644g).

So it's looking like I'm going to be removing Apollo from his mum before the 3 week mark which is ok by me as the 3 week mark is Christmas day

 

[Engel]

@Siikibam @Piggies&buns can you help me out. As you both know I'll be transferring the pigs outside in the late spring. As I have now 2 sows and 2 boars I'm not too sure how to do it.

My brother has very large electric wheel chair so I have to be very mindful of that. There's got to be enough room for his chair to go around the outside of the shed as there's only one place I can put the pig shed. While I'd love a 8x6 shed I'm doubtful considering the size of the wheelchair. I completely forgot to factor it in when we were discussing this last.

Also I have got to think of a plan B if the boys fallout for good further down the line.

If I have a 6ft double hutch and have boys on the top floor and girls on the bottom that'll be fine. But what if the boys fall out? How would I make sure they get the socialisation? I could neuter the one and put him in with the girls but how would I go about the 6 week waiting period?

Also found this regarding hutch size:
Best Guinea Pig Hutches UK 2020 | Large Wooden Outdoor Hutches (guineapiggles.co.uk)

Its a tad confusing as according to this 2 boars can share a 4ft double! What do you think?

Would the boars get upset if they could see a sow? They'll be able to smell them regardless as they'll be in the same room/shed/space.

I just want to be aware of any potential complications and have a plan for if things go pear shaped.

 

[Piggies&buns]

@Siikibam @Piggies&buns can you help me out. As you both know I'll be transferring the pigs outside in the late spring. As I have now 2 sows and 2 boars I'm not too sure how to do it.

My brother has very large electric wheel chair so I have to be very mindful of that. There's got to be enough room for his chair to go around the outside of the shed as there's only one place I can put the pig shed. While I'd love a 8x6 shed I'm doubtful considering the size of the wheelchair. I completely forgot to factor it in when we were discussing this last.

Also I have got to think of a plan B if the boys fallout for good further down the line.

If I have a 6ft double hutch and have boys on the top floor and girls on the bottom that'll be fine. But what if the boys fall out? How would I make sure they get the socialisation? I could neuter the one and put him in with the girls but how would I go about the 6 week waiting period?

Also found this regarding hutch size:
Best Guinea Pig Hutches UK 2020 | Large Wooden Outdoor Hutches (guineapiggles.co.uk)

Its a tad confusing as according to this 2 boars can share a 4ft double! What do you think?

Would the boars get upset if they could see a sow? They'll be able to smell them regardless as they'll be in the same room/shed/space.

I just want to be aware of any potential complications and have a plan for if things go pear shaped.

So yes a 6ft double with girls at the bottom, boys at the top is fine.

If the boys fall out you would need another hutch for one of them to live in and they would need to be facing each other for interaction.

As they have both been around sows, then they can be more accepting of sows smells (particularly if the boys are at the top and you are careful about handling boys first). The strongest response from bonded boars come from when theyve never been around sows - it’s adding sows to a boars only room which can cause a problem but that isn’t relevant to your situation. You still need to be careful though.

Yes you could neuter one of them and put him with the girls, but you’d then have a single boar. You’d be better to neuter both and split the girls up and put one boar with one sow in this scenario. The six week wait would be irrelevant in a sense as if the boys fall out they’d have to be split up anyway.

No you can’t keep two boars in a 4ft hutch - it’s simply not enough room for boars. Being double doesn’t make it double the floor space. You really need a 6ft hutch with boars.

 

[Engel]

So yes a 6ft double with girls at the bottom, boys at the top is fine.

If the boys fall out you would need another hutch for one of them to live in and they would need to be facing each other for interaction.

As they have both been around sows, then they can be more accepting of sows smells (particularly if the boys are at the top and you are careful about handling boys first). The strongest response from bonded boars come from when theyve never been around sows - it’s adding sows to a boars only room which can cause a problem but that isn’t relevant to your situation. You still need to be careful though.

Yes you could neuter one of them and put him with the girls, but you’d then have a single boar. You’d be better to neuter both and split the girls up and put one boar with one sow in this scenario. The six week wait would be irrelevant in a sense as if the boys fall out they’d have to be split up anyway.

No you can’t keep two boars in a 4ft hutch - it’s simply not enough room for boars. Being double doesn’t make it double the floor space. You really need a 6ft hutch with boars.

ah ok thats fair enough. I thought i'd ask to be sure.

During the recovery period from neutering, would it be reasonable to bring the 2 boars in and have them in side by side c&c cages until they're 100% recovered. Or should it be ok to put them back out into the hutch providing its not too hot/cold?

 

[Siikibam]

It would be okay to bring them in. Be aware that you can’t put them out until the temperatures have ‘stabilised’, especially the nighttime.

 

[Piggies&buns]

While recovering from surgery, any animals need to be kept indoors for the first 48 hours minimum. they can go back out once they are eating properly, and are completely over the effects of anaesthetic And as long as it is warm enough.

(this is an issue I’m going to have myself next month. My two young rabbits are being spayed next month so will need to come indoors to recover for a week....they may then be spending the rest of the winter indoors as I imagine it’ll be cold come mid January)

my own vets advise keeping them purely on newspaper or fleece for the first 48 hours so there is no bedding to irritate any wounds. If they are outside and it’s colder, then you won’t be able to do that as they won’t have any warmth.

don’t panic though they may not need neutering or separating - it’s good to have a plan in case a boar bond doesn’t work, but do remember, more boars make it together than not.

 

[Engel]

I weighed Apollo today and he is now 200g! Dysnomia isn't far behind. They are basically 2 weeks old now (well as of 00:03 tonight).

I have noticed Apollo is very interested in Eileithyia's hind end. She is due to come into season over the next few days. I haven't noticed him rumble strutting but as I said he's very interested. (So's Jupiter when she's close to the bars.)

I'm not sure what to do. Do I keep him with mum or should I split them to be safe. They're not really nursing anymore for what it's worth.

Advice please @Wiebke @Piggies&buns @Siikibam @VickiA

 

[Engel]

It would be okay to bring them in. Be aware that you can’t put them out until the temperatures have ‘stabilised’, especially the nighttime.

Yes I'm aware of that, thanks hopefully I'll have plenty of time to sort everything out

 

[Engel]

While recovering from surgery, any animals need to be kept indoors for the first 48 hours minimum. they can go back out once they are eating properly, and are completely over the effects of anaesthetic And as long as it is warm enough.

(this is an issue I’m going to have myself next month. My two young rabbits are being spayed next month so will need to come indoors to recover for a week....they may then be spending the rest of the winter indoors as I imagine it’ll be cold come mid January)

my own vets advise keeping them purely on newspaper or fleece for the first 48 hours so there is no bedding to irritate any wounds. If they are outside and it’s colder, then you won’t be able to do that as they won’t have any warmth.

don’t panic though they may not need neutering or separating - it’s good to have a plan in case a boar bond doesn’t work, but do remember, more boars make it together than not.

Yeh true. I was wondering from a stress point of view. For instance if they've been out in the hutch for a while, would bringing them into a place not smelling like them cause them stress (after an op)? Hopefully you understand what I mean.

No they may not but rather have a plan for the 'what if' scenarios