Help! Female Bonding Trouble!

[annapanda]

Please help/ any reassurance would be so appreciated to stop me from spiraling.

I introduced my girls last night and it went so badly. And today I sobbed my eyes out reading forum after forum feeling like the only option I have is to take my new pig back to the shelter! I’m so confused, overwhelmed and TERRIFIED from the mixed messages and videos online.

I became a pig mom unexpectedly after finding my girl in a park here in NYC and this is my first time owning guineas. I recently got a new piggie for her because I finally had enough space for two! I was not able to do a meet and greet with the pigs at the rescue I adopted from. But I did put a lot of thought and energy into picking a pig and I specifically asked for a submissive one to pair with my Penelope! In bringing home Gueneviere (the new pig) I realized Penelope is quite, quite small!! None of the pigs we looked at (who were non-babies) were smaller than her! She’s just a little lady.

We did the intro yesterday after weeks of quarantine and sharing a cage wall. And it Did. Not. Go. Well. It was pretty aggressive and it seems clear we have two dominant leaning ladies. This is where I’d love any experienced pig people’s help because I am so overwhelmed and confused by what I’m seeing online. There’s so much contradicting information… They definitely pulled fur, there was a lot of chasing and teeth chattering, Penelope was “yawning”
showing her teeth and is STILL rumble strutting even now that she’s back in her own cage with Gwen separated by a wall. It does seems like towards the end of the intro they were moving in the right direction - they both laid down at one point, Gwen was squealing A LOT the whole time and was seemingly quite chill (which I read is a sign of backing down)- but I am mentally preparing myself to have to take her back to the shelter…

I’m also concerned I’m going to have problem with Penelope with any pig and she’ll die miserable and alone because she’s so little! Yet wants to be top pig.

If anyone can help aide me in how to go from here/ talk me off the edge I’d appreciate it! I’m an anxious soul and I know this process isn’t always pretty but man, I wasn’t prepared…

A selfish note: I unfortunately cannot have two cages so they can be friends from afar- I feel terrible but I live in NYC and already struggle with one pig set up in my lil bedroom I KNOW it would derail my quality of life too much to add a second one.

 

[Siikibam]

I’m sorry it went off with such a bang. How long were they together for in the neutral area? I think the worry would be that it was so heated at the beginning. Sows don’t usually have a fur rolling right. Rather they pull hair. But you say the new pig was squealing…I think, if possible, I would try and find a rescue that will do the dating for you. Being small isn’t an indicator of whether a piggy will be submissive though.

I’ll tag @Wiebke @PigglePuggle they have more experience. In the meantime, have a read of the guides below. The first one divides the dominance behaviours into levels.
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)
Bonds In Trouble

 

[annapanda]

I have been looking through them all day, thank you. I’ll keep looking reading.

It wasn’t rolling - I believe, but they pulled out tufts of fur. (That’s what I meant.)

They had an initial quarrel and then they stopped. And the new pig started squealing nonstop and went to lie down/ was eating veggies and seemed very neutral/ unbothered. My original pig (Penelope) kept alternating between pacing around and fully lying down, like full sploot flat and doing the teeth bearing yawning.

They were in the neutral area for maybe a half hour/ 40 minutes before we decided to separate them.

Should I not have to worry that any larger pig will want to be dominant? That’s my concern because pretty much every adult pig is bigger than her little self.
Thanks so much for replying.

 

[Siikibam]

It’s personality rather than size which determines who’s dominant. A small piggy can be dominant. My top sow is smaller than her counterpart. Not by a huge amount but smaller nonetheless.

The lying down sounds good but I don’t know whether that is okay coupled with the hair pulling earlier. Are you sure Penelope was not just yawning like normal?

Wait for the experienced members to reply. I don’t know whether it would be advisable to try again so I won’t say so.

 

[annapanda]

Thanks for the reply, that’s helpful/ puts me more at ease. Penelope is smaller but older.

 

[annapanda]

We may have separated them prematurely… I was really uncomfortable which is a big reason we did.

I’m prettyyyy certain Penelope was showing teeth and not just yawning.

 

[Wiebke]

Please help/ any reassurance would be so appreciated to stop me from spiraling.

I introduced my girls last night and it went so badly. And today I sobbed my eyes out reading forum after forum feeling like the only option I have is to take my new pig back to the shelter! I’m so confused, overwhelmed and TERRIFIED from the mixed messages and videos online.

I became a pig mom unexpectedly after finding my girl in a park here in NYC and this is my first time owning guineas. I recently got a new piggie for her because I finally had enough space for two! I was not able to do a meet and greet with the pigs at the rescue I adopted from. But I did put a lot of thought and energy into picking a pig and I specifically asked for a submissive one to pair with my Penelope! In bringing home Gueneviere (the new pig) I realized Penelope is quite, quite small! None of the pigs we looked at (who were non-babies) were smaller than her! She’s just a little lady.

We did the intro yesterday after weeks of quarantine and sharing a cage wall. And it Did. Not. Go. Well. It was pretty aggressive and it seems clear we have two dominant leaning ladies. This is where I’d love any experienced pig people’s help because I am so overwhelmed and confused by what I’m seeing online. There’s so much contradicting information… They definitely pulled fur, there was a lot of chasing and teeth chattering, Penelope was “yawning”
showing her teeth and is STILL rumble strutting even now that she’s back in her own cage with Gwen separated by a wall. It does seems like towards the end of the intro they were moving in the right direction - they both laid down at one point, Gwen was squealing A LOT the whole time and was seemingly quite chill (which I read is a sign of backing down)- but I am mentally preparing myself to have to take her back to the shelter…

I’m also concerned I’m going to have problem with Penelope with any pig and she’ll die miserable and alone because she’s so little! Yet wants to be top pig.

If anyone can help aide me in how to go from here/ talk me off the edge I’d appreciate it! I’m an anxious soul and I know this process isn’t always pretty but man, I wasn’t prepared…

A selfish note: I unfortunately cannot have two cages so they can be friends from afar- I feel terrible but I live in NYC and already struggle with one pig set up in my lil bedroom I KNOW it would derail my quality of life too much to add a second one.

I am very sorry.

Just read your posts since I started writing and then posting my first draft, so the situation is very different from your first report.

The loud squealing is submission. Yawning is a defensive gesture that means 'stay away from me, I might bite' but is not made from a position of strength, but of weakness. I have only ever seen in insecure piggies.

Whether your two will ultimately gel or not is still very open. Please do not get your hopes up too high. Both piggies are rather on edge and very unsure of themselves. Dominance doesn't go by size but by force of personality. The leader of one of my biggest groups was one of the smallest sows but she was only challenged and disposed when illness and advancing age made her vulnerable and she could no longer face off the challenging younger sow who'd been waiting in the wings for nearly two years (still not my largest).

You may find these guides here helpful:
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics (see chapter on fear-aggression)
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

 

[annapanda]

So they were in a neutral area! And it was pulled fur! Unless I’m misunderstanding what that means…

Penelope was found in a park and the new pig was an owner surrender and came into the shelter with her siblings.

 

[Wiebke]

So they were in a neutral area! And it was pulled fur! Unless I’m misunderstanding what that means…

Penelope was found in a park and the new pig was an owner surrender and came into the shelter with her siblings.

Please read my last post; the thread has moved on since I started writing so I have rewritten it as it was no longer appropriate.

If in doubt, please contact the shelter.

 

[annapanda]

Okay! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’ve been reading and rereading the lists but I’ll go back over them again.

 

[Wiebke]

Okay! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’ve been reading and rereading the lists but I’ll go back over them again.

I would recommend to not leave them together overnight unsupervised. Give them time to regroup and then try again on another day. You will find out by their reaction pretty quickly then whether they really want to be together when the chips are down or not.

That is the crucial point where there is nothing you can do about - like in a successful human partnership, the partners have to ultimately want to be together and stick it out. You cannot change personalities, you can never predict how they interact and you cannot make them get on if they are not happy with each other.

All you can ever give them is that choice and the freedom to express their honest opinion. True pet love is to allow your pets to make their own choices and not to force them to live your own dreams. Pets have their own minds, personalities and dreams - even such small ones as guinea pigs. And the longer I have piggies, the more I discover that they are every bit as complex as humans when it comes to social interaction.

All the best.

 

[Black piggies]

It is nerve wracking. Just to agree with others that Penelope can be small and dominant. My sow Shadow used to be dominant to my previous, massive 1.6kg boar, and in our new pair, the very dominant girl is under 700g! Amazes me.

 

[annapanda]

So some updates/ information;

So my pig (Penelope) is tamed! And she and I are quite close but it took a year. The new pig is still very much getting used to me and her home here.

When I watch videos/ read posts it seems so easy but both my girls HATE being picked up (Penelope hates being held). They both scatter, panic and get stressed out if they’re not covered so during their bonding session - when they were in a neutral area- there was a lot of shear panic from them both. We covered them with a blanket to calm them- which I haven’t seen done and did not like because it was hard to monitor but if we hadn’t done that they both would have just forzen against the wall.

They are separate but sharing a wall. Penelope is often at the wall looking for Gwen and she frequently rumblestruts. Gwen is pretty neutral! She spends a lot of time in her hidies per usual- but overall she’s very neutral and slowly coming out of her shell and spending more time outside a corner of her hidey.

I put a fabric hidey Gwen had been in in Penelope’s cage and she immediately went in and started rumblestrutting.

Does anyone know how long to wait to try another bonding session?
I was planning to Saturday because it’s my day off… but should I not wait that long? Or wait longer? Their last session was Tuesday night.

 

[Wiebke]

I usually give piggies of mine at least 2 days calming off time after an upset/separation.
Could you peg the sheet over the top of the bonding pen with it hanging down the sides in most areas to give them security but still be able to see what is going on? Make sure that you have box and oven gloves next to you in case you need to separate asap.

Here are our piggy whispering and pick up tips; the section about the prey animal instincts will hopefully explain a lot. The piggy whispering tips really work and can help to integrate a very skittish piggy a bit faster.
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips
How To Pick Up And Weigh Your Guinea Pigs Safely

 

[annapanda]

Can’t thank you enough for all your help! I really appreciate you!

 

[annapanda]

We can definitely use a sheet. Thank you. I just get nervous about not being able to see them.
Based on what you said I think Saturday will work. Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

I’ve been brainstorming a way to keep Gwen and just have her live separate… some people mentioned that’s doable?

I just have such limited space as it is I’m worried it will be way too much for me and wear on my mental health in the long run.

 

[annapanda]

Well today I tried again and it went very VERY badly.

My piggie Penelope needs to go to the vet tomorrow because the new pig really hurt her.

I'm devastated and at a total loss of what to do or where to go from here. I feel so hopeless and helpless and defeated. I'm getting messages now saying "It's okay to have one alone." Which contradicts EVERYTHING else I've seen/ read." I am so frustrated and at the end of my rope mentally and emotionally and I'm petrified of doing this again because it's been so so soooo difficult for me. I don't know what's best for my girl anymore. I feel like I'm losing my mind.

 

[Zanzan]

I'm so sorry you're under this stress when you have only tried to do your best. There are better people than me here to give you advice so I'm not going to do that but just want to send you a hug and say please take a breath and a short break from this situation if you can. Unfortunately it's late now for the UK members to answer but I know they will be coming in the morning with some good advice. Try not to panic, there will always be an answer. It might not be the one you hoped for but with support from here you will get it sorted out.

 

[annapanda]

Thanks for the reply, I’m definitely spiraling. The new pig is out of my home. My boyfriend took her. I’m just sad and overwhelmed and don’t know what to do anymore.

 

[Wiebke]

Well today I tried again and it went very VERY badly.

My piggie Penelope needs to go to the vet tomorrow because the new pig really hurt her.

I'm devastated and at a total loss of what to do or where to go from here. I feel so hopeless and helpless and defeated. I'm getting messages now saying "It's okay to have one alone." Which contradicts EVERYTHING else I've seen/ read." I am so frustrated and at the end of my rope mentally and emotionally and I'm petrified of doing this again because it's been so so soooo difficult for me. I don't know what's best for my girl anymore. I feel like I'm losing my mind.

Please take a deep breath. The bond is obviously not going to work; your new piggy is too much on edge and fear-aggressive. She needs somebody very experienced to look after her and work past her issues over quite a long time (it may take months or even years). The problem is not so much the guinea pigs' fault than the way they are produced and sold into completely unsuitable homes as singles at an early age.

If at all possible, companionship is important for guinea pigs but it can be quite difficult to find the perfect partner, especially when the people at the shelter are not exactly piggy-savvy and in view of your space issues.

You may find this guide link here helpful as it takes a closer look at the various issues and aspects that you are facing with single piggies in different circumstances and with a range of different issues. This field is much more complex than those people who say that is OK to keep singles and those that say that every piggy needs a companion think. You have to look at the piggies, where they come from, what their situation and specific issues are, what your own resources are and not least, whether your piggy is actually OK being a single piggy. The guide below looks at all of these aspects in more detail: Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities

For the time being, please concentrate on making sure that both piggies are looked after well; they are both very shaken, too, and may take some time to digest it all and settle down.
You have tried your best and it hasn't worked out with adopting a piggy with some major problems that frankly should not have been rehomed to an inexperienced home. It doesn't mean that you are a bad owner. You just have been confronted with a challenge you do not have yet the experience (and the space) to solve. Not your fault. Look after yourself and try to calm down.

 

[annapanda]

So my pig, Penelope, was FOUND I just want that to be clear. I didn’t buy her or rescue her. I was walking through the park and came across her and took her in after trying to find her family for a few weeks.

I don’t know her background, obviously, because of this. She’s very very friendly with me and is definitely tamed at this point. She comes to greet me when I come in etc… (but she has become much more skittish during this whole ordeal.

Thanks for the reply, I just wanted to clarify this.

The new pig was an owner surrender, from a local shelter, who came in with her litter.

 

[Wiebke]

So my pig, Penelope, was FOUND I just want that to be clear. I didn’t buy her or rescue her. I was walking through the park and came across her and took her in after trying to find her family for a few weeks.

I don’t know her background, obviously, because of this. She’s very very friendly with me and is definitely tamed at this point. She comes to greet me when I come in etc… (but she has become much more skittish during this whole ordeal.

Thanks for the reply, I just wanted to clarify this.

The new pig was an owner surrender, from a local shelter, who came in with her litter.

Please read the singles guide; you should find it helpful.

 

[annapanda]

I’m reading it now, thank you.

 

[Scooter Pie]

Hey, I just wanted to send support. Ive been through this and it is THE WORST. I know how you are feeling right now. Last time I attempted this it ended with injuries too.

As far as the injuries, some saline solution on a qtip to clean them and a little neosporin might be a good idea till you can get to the vet.

Just remember you are doing the best you can for her, finding a friend is a good thing and it'll work out.

 

[annapanda]

Thanks, sorry for being so dramatic on this thread, I was a theater major. Lol.

I’m just very overwhelmed and so so sad. I think it’s the whole year catching up to me. My bf took the new piggie thinking it’d be better than taking her back to the shelter and and we’re going to
regroup.

Her Vet suggested Iodine too, thanks. She’s chugging along. Happy to be back in her home alone.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks, sorry for being so dramatic on this thread, I was a theater major. Lol.

I’m just very overwhelmed and so so sad. I think it’s the whole year catching up to me. My bf took the new piggie thinking it’d be better than taking her back to the shelter and and we’re going to
regroup.

Her Vet suggested Iodine too, thanks. She’s chugging along. Happy to be back in her home alone.

A dramatically failed bonding can take it really out of you. It is a very gutting experience, especially the first times and when you don't have a Plan B in place (which is one thing I have learned to do if I am doing any bonding at home).

 

[annapanda]

So given they had such a traumatic fall out should/ could they live next to each other? Or should they not be kept near each other?
My boyfriend took her to his apartment, that was our plan B, going in, but we want to know now if Penelope can come visit and be okay if Gwen is there… OR if we end up living together if they’ll be able to be close to each other or if we should just rehome Gwen at this point.

 

[Wiebke]

So given they had such a traumatic fall out should/ could they live next to each other? Or should they not be kept near each other?
My boyfriend took her to his apartment, that was our plan B, going in, but we want to know now if Penelope can come visit and be okay if Gwen is there… OR if we end up living together if they’ll be able to be close to each other or if we should just rehome Gwen at this point.

They can still live as neighbours as long as they cannot get at each other.