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How Fast Should Baytril Work? Bulging Eye And Chewing Problem

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Powerpigs

Powerpigs

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My poor Ampeeri has had chewing problems for three weeks now. First it was just his chewing, he wasn't able to bite his veggies properly, and quickly he wasn't even trying anymore. The first trip to the vet's: his molars were checked, and the vet filed them under anesthesia. The vet also found a little wound inside his cheeck. He was given Metacam for 3 days after this. Initially his chewing got a bit better, but he still lost a lot of weight in the course of 2 weeks, from 1250 g to 1050 g even though he was syringe fed, too.

Last week we took him again to the vet's. This time, the vet noted his right eye was bulging a bit. The eye was just bigger, otherwise looked normal, so the vet thought it could be an infection under the eye or in his tooth roots. Ampeeri was given a 10 day long treatment of Baytril, 0.1 ml twice a day, and also Metacam again for 3 days. He's now on day 8 of his Baytril treatment, and the eye is still bulging. His behavior is maybe a bit better, he is moving around occasionally and trying to eat, but he is a really slow eater now and takes only the tiniest bites at a time and chews for a long time. Mostly he seems interested in his cagemate's poos, and those he can eat quite ok. He is again lost some weight, today he was 990 g. I've syringe fed him three times a day for the last week.

So my question is, should the Baytril have had effect on his eye and general condition already? Because it seems to me it's not working. I'm of course continuing the treatment anyway. My vet also recommended a more experienced vet for me if Ampeeri isn't improving, and I'm tying to contact this new vet today.

Here you can see the bulging right eye. It's not bad looking, but still clearly bigger than the other eye.
IMG_20170425_180456.webp
 
The bulging eye can be two things linked to overgrown molars. The roots could be overgrown and pushing into the the eye socket or an abscess behind the eye. Both need specific treatment and i'm tagging @furryfriends (TEAS) as an expert. I had this once but unfortunately my girl was very ill with pneumonia and didn't make it as far as treating the eye/teeth problem
 
Poor little mite, I can't really say any more than Lady Kelly as she's given great advice. It's also great that your vet recommended someone more experienced, not many vets do that in my experience!

Just wanted to say that I hope he gets better soon and to send healing vibes!
 
Tbh 0.2ml of Baytril daily sounds like a fairly low dose, especially at what his starting weight was. I agree that it doesn't seem to be doing him any good, and I can't add anything useful except that I hope the recommended vet has something for him, he's clearly still interested in trying to eat at least. Good luck :(
 
Are there different strengths of Baytril available? Mine is 50 mg/ml according to the recipe, so Ampeeri is getting 10 mg daily. Is it still a low dose? When the vet prescribed the Baytril, Ampeeri was down to 1050 g. I'm just about to call the new vet, her clinic just opened up for the day.
 
It looks like a possible abscess brewing in the jaw, which will push the eye forward :( Baytril will not be strong enough, my piggy had to have 4 weeks of Zithromax antibiotic & because we caught it early her eye was saved. Has the vet done x rays of her head to see what is happening with her tooth roots etc?
 
Powerpigs said:
Are there different strengths of Baytril available? Mine is 50 mg/ml according to the recipe, so Ampeeri is getting 10 mg daily. Is it still a low dose? When the vet prescribed the Baytril, Ampeeri was down to 1050 g. I'm just about to call the new vet, her clinic just opened up for the day.
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My bad, I was thinking of the 2.5% solution. I always forget there are others. Really sorry about that! Still, same applies, good luck with the second vet.
 
Poppy'sMum said:
It looks like a possible abscess brewing in the jaw, which will push the eye forward :( Baytril will not be strong enough, my piggy had to have 4 weeks of Zithromax antibiotic & because we caught it early her eye was saved. Has the vet done x rays of her head to see what is happening with her tooth roots etc?
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The first vet was not able to do x-rays, which was one of the reasons she recommended the more experienced vet, who should be able to. Would the x-rays need to be taken under anesthesia? I do hope there's still time to save the eye, I feel horrible for not noticing sooner :(

Lorcan said:
My bad, I was thinking of the 2.5% solution. I always forget there are others. Really sorry about that! Still, same applies, good luck with the second vet.
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No harm done! Good to know that at least the dosage is right. I just called the clinic, I was only able to get an appoint for next week. Though the nurse I talked to promised to consult the vet if the wait is too long, and get back to me today. At least according to Google, this vet seems to be THE cavy savvy vet in Finland, so I'm really hoping she knows what to do!
 
It's not your fault, these things can happen very quickly. You have caught it early, but the problem is that Baytril does not get into deep tissue like Zithromax can. You could speak to your vet & ask if she can get hold of it, it isn't licensed for guinea pigs. It's proper name is Azithromycin. Unfortunately because an abscess can do damage it could leave your piggy with permanent damage in the jaw which might mean regular dentals. That would be the worst case though, hopefully if the infection is cured she could be fine & not need further treatment.
 
I second the Zithromax recommendation. My Tim had a bulging eye (looked a lot worse than your boy) and he turned out to have a retrobulbar abscess which resulted in his eye being removed. He was then treated with Zithromax. His eye progressed really quickly though so I think it is positive that it does not seem to have got any worse since you started the Baytril.
 
Poppy'sMum said:
It's not your fault, these things can happen very quickly. You have caught it early, but the problem is that Baytril does not get into deep tissue like Zithromax can. You could speak to your vet & ask if she can get hold of it, it isn't licensed for guinea pigs. It's proper name is Azithromycin. Unfortunately because an abscess can do damage it could leave your piggy with permanent damage in the jaw which might mean regular dentals. That would be the worst case though, hopefully if the infection is cured she could be fine & not need further treatment.
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helen105281 said:
I second the Zithromax recommendation. My Tim had a bulging eye (looked a lot worse than your boy) and he turned out to have a retrobulbar abscess which resulted in his eye being removed. He was then treated with Zithromax. His eye progressed really quickly though so I think it is positive that it does not seem to have got any worse since you started the Baytril.
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Thank you both! I managed to get an appointment for tomorrow from a third vet, recommended by the second vet. The second vet thought it would be better to take the x-rays sooner than next Wednesday, which was the earliest available time for her. I'm still keeping that time too, as a precaution. But tomorrow I should know better after the x-ray, and I will mention the Zithromax too! (Now it's just the terrible task of asking my boss for a day off for tomorrow, I hope he will understand!)
 
Powerpigs said:
My poor Ampeeri has had chewing problems for three weeks now. First it was just his chewing, he wasn't able to bite his veggies properly, and quickly he wasn't even trying anymore. The first trip to the vet's: his molars were checked, and the vet filed them under anesthesia. The vet also found a little wound inside his cheeck. He was given Metacam for 3 days after this. Initially his chewing got a bit better, but he still lost a lot of weight in the course of 2 weeks, from 1250 g to 1050 g even though he was syringe fed, too.

Last week we took him again to the vet's. This time, the vet noted his right eye was bulging a bit. The eye was just bigger, otherwise looked normal, so the vet thought it could be an infection under the eye or in his tooth roots. Ampeeri was given a 10 day long treatment of Baytril, 0.1 ml twice a day, and also Metacam again for 3 days. He's now on day 8 of his Baytril treatment, and the eye is still bulging. His behavior is maybe a bit better, he is moving around occasionally and trying to eat, but he is a really slow eater now and takes only the tiniest bites at a time and chews for a long time. Mostly he seems interested in his cagemate's poos, and those he can eat quite ok. He is again lost some weight, today he was 990 g. I've syringe fed him three times a day for the last week.

So my question is, should the Baytril have had effect on his eye and general condition already? Because it seems to me it's not working. I'm of course continuing the treatment anyway. My vet also recommended a more experienced vet for me if Ampeeri isn't improving, and I'm tying to contact this new vet today.

Here you can see the bulging right eye. It's not bad looking, but still clearly bigger than the other eye.
View attachment 62508
Click to expand...

I also second the zithromax (azithromycin) recommendation; it has been successfully used against abscesses in the UK for some years now.

It looks like retrobulbar abscess. The baytril dose is too low; baytril is often to weak to cut through an abscess.
@furryfriends (TEAS)
 
Hey, can someone recommend a correct dosage for zithromax? My vet said she has never given it to guinea pigs!
 
Powerpigs said:
Hey, can someone recommend a correct dosage for zithromax? My vet said she has never given it to guinea pigs!
Click to expand...

It is 0.1 ml per 100g of body weight. You can give it either once daily or half the dose twice daily.

I currently have got a 1 kg guinea pig with a dental root abscess on it. She is on 0.5 ml twice daily for 2 weeks; but if necessary she'll get another round.

Make sure that you give plenty of probiotics. Most guinea pigs have no problem with zithromax, but some can lose their appetite completely. My Nosgan needed a course of fibreplex afterwards to rebalance his guts when he was put on it in a bid to save his severely bashed in eye (which has thankfully happened, but it was touch and go for several weeks).
 
Wiebke said:
It is 0.1 ml per 100g of body weight. You can give it either once daily or half the dose twice daily.

I currently have got a 1 kg guinea pig with a dental root abscess on it. She is on 0.5 ml twice daily for 2 weeks; but if necessary she'll get another round.

Make sure that you give plenty of probiotics. Most guinea pigs have no problem with zithromax, but some can lose their appetite completely. My Nosgan needed a course of fibreplex afterwards to rebalance his guts when he was put on it in a bid to save his severely bashed in eye (which has thankfully happened, but it was touch and go for several weeks).
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Thank you @Wiebke ! I was at the vet's when I was asking. Afterwards the vet actually found something on Zithromax, and prescribed 0.5 ml per day for Ampeeri, the solution being 40 mg/ml. Is your solution weaker, or do I again have too small a dose? I also got Primperan for his stomach, and Ampeeri has been wise to eat a lot of his cagemate's poos, too.

The x-rays showed "a suspicious area" in the right upper jaw, but the vet said it's not clearly an abscess. So, at least nothing huge in there, but still something. The vet also fixed Ampeeri's lower molars, as they were trapping his tongue a bit. No wonder after three weeks of not eating properly?

The vet wanted to see if the molar fix and double dose of Baytril would help, she too agreed that the previous dosage of Baytril was too low. So, now I am to give Baytril today and tomorrow, and if Saturday morning I don't see any improvements, I was advised to switch to Zithromax.

Ampeeri is now recovering from his sedation, poor guy has been through so much already! He has not eaten yet, but I syringe fed him extra in the morning, the vet pumped him up with some fluids and vitamin B, and I have laid pieces of carrot and sweet pepper in front of his nose, as well as some chopped hay and pellets.
 
Powerpigs said:
Thank you @Wiebke ! I was at the vet's when I was asking. Afterwards the vet actually found something on Zithromax, and prescribed 0.5 ml per day for Ampeeri, the solution being 40 mg/ml. Is your solution weaker, or do I again have too small a dose? I also got Primperan for his stomach, and Ampeeri has been wise to eat a lot of his cagemate's poos, too.

The x-rays showed "a suspicious area" in the right upper jaw, but the vet said it's not clearly an abscess. So, at least nothing huge in there, but still something. The vet also fixed Ampeeri's lower molars, as they were trapping his tongue a bit. No wonder after three weeks of not eating properly?

The vet wanted to see if the molar fix and double dose of Baytril would help, she too agreed that the previous dosage of Baytril was too low. So, now I am to give Baytril today and tomorrow, and if Saturday morning I don't see any improvements, I was advised to switch to Zithromax.

Ampeeri is now recovering from his sedation, poor guy has been through so much already! He has not eaten yet, but I syringe fed him extra in the morning, the vet pumped him up with some fluids and vitamin B, and I have laid pieces of carrot and sweet pepper in front of his nose, as well as some chopped hay and pellets.
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It is likely that your dosage is too low. Many general vets are not aware that guinea pigs have a very fast metabolism and usually require medicating twice a day with the dosage that is needed for a cat of the same size, or they need double the dose once a day. Please contact your vet.
The dosage I have recommended has been prescribed by a UK vet that specialises in cats, rabbits, guinea pigs and small furries and that sees guinea pigs from all over the country for dental/facial abscess problems.
Here is the contact if your vet wants to make enquires himself; Simon Maddock is usually willing to help with his knowledge. He treats around 15 guinea pigs a week for dental problems and has plenty of experience with retrobulbar abscesses. The Cat and Rabbit Care Clinic
 
I just got the x-ray photos to my email, I'm attaching it here in case someone would like to have a look.
I also contacted the vet considering the correct dosage of Zithromax, I'm now waiting for her response, she was unavailable when I called.

Ampeeri_Niiranen_Heidi_Kallo -Kallo LAT-27.4.2017-12_28_22-851.webp
 
A little update!

The double dose of Baytril did absolutely nothing as you predicted, and on Saturday I switched to Zithromax. First two days Ampeeri got only 0.5 ml once per day, as the vet was concerned how Ampeeri's stomach would handle the medicine. Yesterday I doubled the dose (with the vet's permission), and now Ampeeri gets 0.5 ml twice a day. His eye is still bulging, and his eating is as difficult as it has been all this time. He is now down to 930 g. How fast have you seen results with Zithromax?

As I have an appointment for tomorrow for the probably most guinea pig savvy vet in Finland (who we haven't seen yet), I'm going to take Ampeeri there to get a second opinion on the x-rays. The vet from last week also already declared that she has nothing if the Zithromax doesn't work... Apparently they don't do eye removal surgery here! Not that Ampeeri's eye yet looks like it needs removing, but still.
 
The only comparison I have is my pig Tim, who though he was on Zithromax the eye carried on bulging at a very fast speed and he had to have it removed. The other times I have used Zithromax it does tend to kick in fairly quickly.
 
Powerpigs said:
A little update!

The double dose of Baytril did absolutely nothing as you predicted, and on Saturday I switched to Zithromax. First two days Ampeeri got only 0.5 ml once per day, as the vet was concerned how Ampeeri's stomach would handle the medicine. Yesterday I doubled the dose (with the vet's permission), and now Ampeeri gets 0.5 ml twice a day. His eye is still bulging, and his eating is as difficult as it has been all this time. He is now down to 930 g. How fast have you seen results with Zithromax?

As I have an appointment for tomorrow for the probably most guinea pig savvy vet in Finland (who we haven't seen yet), I'm going to take Ampeeri there to get a second opinion on the x-rays. The vet from last week also already declared that she has nothing if the Zithromax doesn't work... Apparently they don't do eye removal surgery here! Not that Ampeeri's eye yet looks like it needs removing, but still.
Click to expand...

It can well be that by now the dental system is impacted through irregular chewing. Guinea pig teeth can overgrow very quickly, so the specialist will have to check that, too.

It takes a while for the zithromax to kick in. Make sure that you give plenty of probiotics and continue with the syringe feeding. Hopefully the eye will start to shrink at some point. It may take more than one round of zithromax. At the very worst, a combination of zithromax and marbocyl (a stronger form of baytril) may help to save the eye.

@furryfriends (TEAS) has firsthand experience with retrobulbar abscesses and complications (including eye removals) in her sanctuary. I agree that it is more difficult in Finland when you do not have any guinea pig specialists in the country.
 
Thank you @helen105281 and @Wiebke !

Ampeeri's teeth were indeed fixed again last week, and I'm going to ask the vet to check them tomorrow, too. This vet is said to be the guinea-guru as well a teeth specialist, so I have my hopes up she will do a good job.

I've run out of the probiotic I was given last week, so tomorrow I'm going to ask for a lot more. The Zithromax recipe says 7 to 20 days, but the pharmacist said the syrup will only hold for 10 days, so I'll also ask for another recipe for the next ten days in case Ampeeri needs it. A new box of Supreme Science Recovery is on its way to my address, and I'm prepared to syringe feed Ampeeri as long as it takes. He has clearly not given up yet, so nor will I!
 
It may take a good month of Zithromax before you can get it under control. My piggy didn't lose her eye fortunately, she still has one bulgy one because the jaw arcade has been permanently damaged & she has to have dentals every 3 weeks probably for the rest of her life. Keep your eye on the digestion; Zithromax can, in rare cases cause bloaty episodes.
 
Okay, back from the vet's. Ampeeri's teeth were ok, and I was told to continue with the Zithromax for two weeks, also dog Metacam and Zantac for his stomach. The vet did find an abnormality in his jaw/skull structure from the x-rays.

And now the thing I have been dreading has been put in to writing: his diagnosis says to consider PTS if the two weeks of Zithromax doesn't work.

I am in pieces in here, with Ampeeri on my lap. He is conforting me, and it's killing me that he's doing that when I'm crying over his possible PTS. Poor pig has no idea.
 
Another update!

Firstly, sorry for my despair in my previous post, I was just so overwhelmed that the vet was already discussing the possibility of pts.

Ampeeri is now on day 10 of Zithromax, day 8 of getting it twice a day. He has managed to keep his weight quite stable for the last week, which is a huge plus! He is now between 920-930 g. Before, he was steadily losing at least 10 g per day. I think I have managed to syringe feed him more because I'm getting better at it, but I hope that's not all, and the stabilization of his weight would mean he feels better. I've also given him 0.2 ml of dog Metacam once per day, and 0.3 ml of Zantac thrice per day since last Wednesday.

I can't say if his chewing has improved or not, since I haven't really spotted him eating. I think the Zithromax is messing with his appetite? Yesterday he nibbled on some carrot from my hand, and his attempt was not as feeble as before, but he still didn't manage a proper bite. The only thing I see him eating is his mate's poos, and those he eats a lot! There are basically no normal poos left when I do poo patrol.

Over the last few days his right eye has seemed maybe a little less bulging. But the bulginess depends a lot on his posture, so sometimes the eye looks totally normal and sometimes it's definitely bulging. I tried to get a new photo of the eye in the same posture as in my first post to compare. Would you say it's still the same or has it gotten maybe a bit smaller?

IMG_20170507_194024.webp
 
Zithromax can affect their appetite but I have not noticed it with pigs I have had on it. Those that have had it recently though seem to have soft poos. I am encouraged that the eye is not looking any worse as I would have expected it to look completely different by now if there was an abscess behind it. I am concerned though that he is not eating at all for himself. How much syringe feed are you managing to give him each day?
 
Ampeeri has had soft and small poos for the whole time. Three weeks ago it was a full blown diarrhea, now his poos have at least firmed up a bit, but they are really small. I think the Zantac improved his poos a bit, as it helps his bowel movements.

The eye has looked the same all along, only the size differs. The vet primarily suspected retrobulbar abscess, but mentioned the bulging could also be a result of a tumor. The x-rays did not help in identifying the cause.

I have not seen him eating any hay for a few days now, I think the last time I saw was last week. I spot him occasionally at the pellet bowl, but I'm not sure how much he manages to eat, as he tends to drop the bit of pellet out of his mouth. I've cut the pellets to small pieces to aid him. We also added a water bowl for him, and I've seen him use it at least a couple of times. All this being said, I go to work every weekday, so I'm not home 24/7 to monitor him. Also the pigs are usually most active after I go to sleep, so hopefully he is eating when I don't see him. I think I average about 25-35 ml of syringe feed for him daily in the weekdays, a bit more on weekends. It takes me about an hour to syringe around 10 ml, because Ampeeri can be quite wriggly and doesn't like me syringing, that's why the amount I manage is so small. As his weight has been stable now for a while, I guess he is eating something himself, too? Because the amount I manage to syringe is nowhere near a full daily amount.
 
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