How To Give Avipro Plus When On Antibiotics

[JackJack1]

I would split the baytril dose into two lots; guinea pigs have a very fast metabolism, so it will be more effective. Please syringe a pinch of probiotic dissolved in 1ml of water about 1-2 hours after you give the baytril. Ideally, you syringe half 1ml syringe (0.5ml) in one go; that is about a mouthful.

As to the recommendations about vet care, may I please remind those members urging the two members currently dealing with a potential UTI to see another vet that the veterinary care in neither case is wrong or inadequate and that there is no reason whatsoever in abandoning the current treatment unless there is a negative reaction to the baytril!

Thanks for the help. I have decided now to split the full dose into 2 over the 24 hours. In this way he will still get the same dose over the 24 hours, but not get a huge dose in one go, which would more likely have a negative impact on his gut flora. I will give him one dose at night and one in the morning 12 hours apart, which is also the guidance on the drug literature. It will also give him a more stable blood level. Everyone I have come across has been recommended as 2 doses in 24 hours.

 

[saman]

Zithromax is a very strong, last ditch antibiotic, which should be used only if a piggy's life is at stake.
There can be negative responses to baytril, but they are not all that common in my own long term experience with a number of guinea pigs. Please don't panic; the medical treatment your piggy is getting is perfectly OK! I've had several piggies with UTI that have recovered perfectly well on the course of treatment you are currently undergoing.

I would also ask any other members to PLEASE stop panicking inexperienced forum members with your own horror stories or calls to see another vet, and rather support them in a positive manner.

Its hard as you only ever really hear the negative stories, and as I mentioned before after loosing Peanut last week, it has made me really cautious, even paranoid. When you have given Baytril before, did it have an affect on your piggies appetite? Caramel is still eating, but not as much as usual. I gave him 3ml of cc earlier, but have not given him anymore as he is still eating, I am managing to tempt him every few hours with something So I am just planning to see how he is tomo. I think I will get up half way through night, to make sure he eats something.

 

[saman]

Thanks for the help. I have decided now to split the full dose into 2 over the 24 hours. In this way he will still get the same dose over the 24 hours, but not get a huge dose in one go, which would more likely have a negative impact on his gut flora. I will give him one dose at night and one in the morning 12 hours apart, which is also the guidance on the drug literature. It will also give him a more stable blood level. Everyone I have come across has been recommended as 2 doses in 24 hours.

Good luck. Caramel had a dose last night, this morning and just now. He is still managing to eat some veg, and grass . Fingers crossed they are both better soon xx

 

[The Furry Godmother]

How's your baby doing now? Eating anything? Drinking anything? X

 

[helen105281]

The reason it is not advisable to put probiotic in their usual drinking water is because of the fact it needs to be given at least an hour apart from the probiotics, as Wiebke has mentioned above.

 

[The Furry Godmother]

@Wiebke another vet was only suggested as this member has another open thread about the same issue and was told to get another antibiotic, because she couldn't I just suggested if she wasn't happy to seek a second opinion. After giving useful advice on what should be done from my experience with antibiotics and if her piggy is not eating etc. Sometimes you can't do right for being wrong. Sigh.


I'll keep an eye to see how your piggys are doing, I need to keep an eye on mine for the moment think today has been a bit too much for him x


Also if someone had replied to my threat about Frank then I'd have known that even though the vet said probiotic in his water all day was fine that he should have it still an hour after.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks for the help. I have decided now to split the full dose into 2 over the 24 hours. In this way he will still get the same dose over the 24 hours, but not get a huge dose in one go, which would more likely have a negative impact on his gut flora. I will give him one dose at night and one in the morning 12 hours apart, which is also the guidance on the drug literature. It will also give him a more stable blood level. Everyone I have come across has been recommended as 2 doses in 24 hours.

It is better to split baytril into a morning and evening dose, but the daily dose you have been prescribed is the correct dose of baytril for a UTI, so your treating vet is not doing anything essential wrong.

There are several different issues lumped under the cover of an UTI, so it is generally a matter of finding out what exactly you are dealing with. You are on the lowest and easiest level of treatment. Hopefully, that will do the trick. If that is not successful, a vet will then investigate whether there is a bladder stone/sludge problem or whether you are dealing with a cystitis, an inflammation of the bladder walls, which often does not react to antibiotics and is much more difficult to treat.

It is also worth remembering that the use of any other antibiotics apart from baytril is only very recent, and that any long term side effects or issues are only gradually emerging, as they are being used more widely on guinea pigs. Baytril is the only antibiotic that licenced and that has been used for any length of time. While it can have some issues, it is still a decent alround antibiotic and its side effects are well known. We are currently in a very fluid, fast developing phase of animal medicine, but there is nothing essential wrong with the tried and tested approach.

Please contact your vet asap if your piggy is losing the appetite or is showing other signs of deterioration; but you should do the same with any other medication/course of treatment as well.

As an alternative to probiotics, you can also give poo soup - that is fresh poo from healthy piggies soaked in water; then syringe the water. It contains healthy gut flora and can also help to restock the guts with the right stuff. You often see recovering piggies digging in their companions' bums for that purpose.

 

[Wiebke]

@Wiebke another vet was only suggested as this member has another open thread about the same issue and was told to get another antibiotic, because she couldn't I just suggested if she wasn't happy to seek a second opinion. After giving useful advice on what should be done from my experience with antibiotics and if her piggy is not eating etc. Sometimes you can't do right for being wrong. Sigh.


I'll keep an eye to see how your piggys are doing, I need to keep an eye on mine for the moment think today has been a bit too much for him x

As to the general policy on our forum recommendations:
We generally only encourage members to seek out a different vet for a second opinion if the current treatment is either clearly not working, inadequate or a matter for a specialist vet. We try to give our recommendations what to ask a vet for in terms of optimal treatment, but as long as treatment received is appropriate, we do not persist and do not send people elsewhere.

 

[Harry&lloyd]

I have located Pro C probiotic which you can get at PetsatHome.

Has anyone got any experience of whether this is OK or not as unable to wait for online purchase as on antibiotic from today.

I used pro c probiotic for Nala, I sprinkled it on their her and Katie's veggies and they both loved it

 

[NASH]

We took advice from the vet before stopping the baytril as didn't want to take chance with her infection getting worse. she tolerated it better in injection form but it couldn't be injected every day. Fluffy had a different infection hence the extremely strong antibiotic. Sounds like a good plan tempting him with titbits every few hours. We've had piggies with UTIs that have recovered and never had it again.

 

[JackJack1]

It is better to split baytril into a morning and evening dose, but the daily dose you have been prescribed is the correct dose of baytril for a UTI, so your treating vet is not doing anything essential wrong.

There are several different issues lumped under the cover of an UTI, so it is generally a matter of finding out what exactly you are dealing with. You are on the lowest and easiest level of treatment. Hopefully, that will do the trick. If that is not successful, a vet will then investigate whether there is a bladder stone/sludge problem or whether you are dealing with a cystitis, an inflammation of the bladder walls, which often does not react to antibiotics and is much more difficult to treat.

It is also worth remembering that the use of any other antibiotics apart from baytril is only very recent, and that any long term side effects or issues are only gradually emerging, as they are being used more widely on guinea pigs. Baytril is the only antibiotic that licenced and that has been used for any length of time. While it can have some issues, it is still a decent alround antibiotic and its side effects are well known. We are currently in a very fluid, fast developing phase of animal medicine, but there is nothing essential wrong with the tried and tested approach.

Please contact your vet asap if your piggy is losing the appetite or is showing other signs of deterioration; but you should do the same with any other medication/course of treatment as well.

As an alternative to probiotics, you can also give poo soup - that is fresh poo from healthy piggies soaked in water; then syringe the water. It contains healthy gut flora and can also help to restock the guts with the right stuff. You often see recovering piggies digging in their companions' bums for that purpose.

Thanks for the help. I have given Joe his first dose of baytril now and first dose of metacam. I gave the baytril first and then the metacam, as I think they seem to take metacam better and it would take away the taste of the baytril. I quickly followed that with piece of cucumber which was wolfed down immediately. He had a cuddle and then put back in his cage, where he is now munching happily through a pile of hay. He had earlier licked a load of Oxbow critical care off the back of a plastic spoon as he seems to like the taste. I see that it has fruit in it and it smells like aniseed, so this will also give him a few more vitamins and minerals as a top up. I will monitor him closely now and make sure he keeps eating. He will be spoiled over the next few days and get all his favourites as encouragement. I will also monitor his poos and weight and hopefully we will get there together.

We have to go back and see the vet again in one week, or before if any more problems. She is going to examine his bladder again and hopefully either he will be better, or he will have check for stones.

 

[Wiebke]

Best of luck! Hopefully, it is just a urine infection and will clear up. You should see an improvement within 2-3 days if it is. It is good that the vet is asking you back after one week (or sooner if there are problems) to check on the progress and to see whether she needs to take stones or other forms of bladder problems into account; pity about her people skills!

 

[JackJack1]

Best of luck! Hopefully, it is just a urine infection and will clear up. You should see an improvement within 2-3 days if it is. It is good that she is asking you back after one week (or sooner) to check on the progress and to see whether she needs to take stones or other forms of bladder problems into account.

Thanks again. I am so grateful for all the support from here and it has helped me enormously and Joe sends his thanks too.

 

[Wiebke]

It would help in the future if you please kept all enquiries pertaining to the same illness/piggy to one thread. When I and the other medical contributors are jumping between several threads, it can otherwise get confusing for us, especially if we are dealing with more than one similar case at the time or if it plays out over several days.

The medical contributors are specifically monitoring this section and get alerts; we try our best to answer as quickly as possible considering that we are doing it in our free time and are peeking in whenever work or real life allows.

 

[saman]

@Wiebke another vet was only suggested as this member has another open thread about the same issue and was told to get another antibiotic, because she couldn't I just suggested if she wasn't happy to seek a second opinion. After giving useful advice on what should be done from my experience with antibiotics and if her piggy is not eating etc. Sometimes you can't do right for being wrong. Sigh.


I'll keep an eye to see how your piggys are doing, I need to keep an eye on mine for the moment think today has been a bit too much for him x


Also if someone had replied to my threat about Frank then I'd have known that even though the vet said probiotic in his water all day was fine that he should have it still an hour after.

Thanks for your advice. Sometimes its good just to hear everyones opinions, and take it all on board. Caramel seems to be doing ok, he is eating a bit better, although being fussy! I am just spoiling him at mo, as just want to make sure he eats whilst on the antibiotics. How is Frank now?

 

[saman]

It would help in the future if you please kept all enquiries pertaining to the same illness/piggy to one thread. When I and the other medical contributors are jumping between several threads, it can otherwise get confusing for us, especially if we are dealing with more than one similar case at the time or if it plays out over several days.

The medical contributors are specifically monitoring this section and get alerts; we try our best to answer as quickly as possible considering that we are doing it in our free time and are peeking in whenever work or real life allows.

Sorry it has all got a bit confusing as both our cases are quite similar. I started two threads too, as its all very new to me, and wasnt sure if I needed a new thread for separate question. All of your advice is greatly appreciated, just having others there helps a lot .

 

[saman]

We took advice from the vet before stopping the baytril as didn't want to take chance with her infection getting worse. she tolerated it better in injection form but it couldn't be injected every day. Fluffy had a different infection hence the extremely strong antibiotic. Sounds like a good plan tempting him with titbits every few hours. We've had piggies with UTIs that have recovered and never had it again.

Thank you. Caramel is doing well at the moment

 

[Wiebke]

It is our aim to not only provide good advice but also equally importantly reassurance to members who can easily become confused and panicked if they are getting too much conflicting advice; we have made that experience in past years.

That is one of the main reasons why we have introduced our medical "notable contributors". They all have solid medical knowledge in various areas and are monitoring specifically this section. They are also aware of the fact that conditions and access to vets/specialists are very different in other parts of the world, so our advice can vary widely, even on the same problem, depending on who we are dealing with and what is achievable/available.

 

[The Furry Godmother]

Thanks for your advice. Sometimes its good just to hear everyones opinions, and take it all on board. Caramel seems to be doing ok, he is eating a bit better, although being fussy! I am just spoiling him at mo, as just want to make sure he eats whilst on the antibiotics. How is Frank now?

That's always good and I never doubt that ha
That's good to hear, what's he had so far?
Frank is okay he's feeling it today mites are driving him mad, probably as there dying again no fur left on one of his legs wish the awful things would go away! -.- seems okay on his Baytril though just keeping an eye on him

 

[JackJack1]

Joe has had his second dose of baytril this morning. He is still eating his greens/veg and cucumber. He is eating his hay and I caught sight of him eating his pellets, although they do not seem to have gone down much. I have just been to Pets at Home and got his favourite Excel dandelion and marigold herbage and he has had a munch at that too. Early days, but I
have not heard him wimpering when he goes to the toilet like he was, so maybe the painkiller/anti-inflammatory he is on is helping him a bit. I am just keeping a close eye on him and he is being spoilt rotten.

I played him brahms lullaby from youtube, which plays over and over and when I looked around, he had settled down in his cage in a fresh nest of hay, totally relaxed. It did make me smile.

 

[Wiebke]

It sounds very encouraging!

 

[saman]

Caramel is hardly eating now. I have started him on the CC, which he hates through the syringe I am phoning the vet tomo to try and get him seen, and discuss taking him off the baytril. Do you think I should leave his dose out later today? Poops are very few now, very small, and very dark

 

[Wiebke]

Caramel is hardly eating now. I have started him on the CC, which he hates through the syringe I am phoning the vet tomo to try and get him seen, and discuss taking him off the baytril. Do you think I should leave his dose out later today? Poops are very few now, very small, and very dark

Good that you have started him on the Critical Care; hopefully that will come through in the next 24 hours. Please see a vet as soon as you can and weigh him daily at the same time to monitor his food intake; also make sure that he drinks. You can leave out a dose if you feel that it is the baytril and not his illness or pain that is causing the loss of appetite. If there is a deterioration, you may wnat to see an out-of-hours vet (number is usually available from your local vet's answering machine) and ask for a gut stimulant.
Here are our tips on how you can best support an ill piggy off its food. http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/complete-hand-feeding-guide.115359/

 

[saman]

Help, after I gave him his last cc, after about 5-10mins, he did a biggish softer poop, then lots of diarrhea came out, soft brown (looked like the cc). I cant get to an emergency vet tonight, because its just me and the children in the house (and I dont drive). I will take him to vet first thing in the morn. Do I just carry on with the cc? Is there anything else I can do to help him tonight?

 

[helen105281]

I don't necessarily think the cc caused the diarrhoea so I would continue as it contains fibre which would help firm things up. I would also try to make sure he has plenty of fluids. If you have and Dioralyte in the house he can have that.

 

[saman]

I don't have any dioralyte . I am feeling so sad now, I am not over loosing peanut 2 weeks ago, and never expected to be going through this again straight away. I am going to settle on the sofa for the night, to make the cc feeds easier/quicker and keep an eye on him. Just gave him some water by syringe and 3cc, thats all i could get into him. He just keeps it there in his mouth . I think my daughter is blaming me, as Peanut went downhill so fast on Baytril, so she didnt want me to give it to Caramel. Now exactly the same if happening with him. Its so hard to know what to do for the best, I should have listened to her. I feel so guilty, I dont want to loose him.

 

[Wiebke]

Please have your boy seen as soon as you can, but continue with the Critical Care, giving little but often, and giving him water to keep him hydrated. it takes about 24 hours for food to pass through the guts, so it is certainly not the recovery food that is to blame.

You care can make a difference, so please don't panic and don't give up!

 

[saman]

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought it was the cc. I never thought that, just wasn't sure how to handle it last night. I carried on with 3ml cc every 2 hrs. This morning he seemed a bit perkier and has eaten a little grass and lettuce by himself (but not much).
Went back to vets this morn, they advised to stop the baytril (which I already had stopped yesterday pm). He has given me Emeprid to give him 3 times a day, reduce Metacam to 0.2ml once a day, and carry on with cc. His poops have gone back to small dark ones, but he is struggling with them, as they all seem to come at once. I have been massaging/tapping on his belly, as this seems to help. Hoping he gets stronger and gets his appetite back.

 

[Wiebke]

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought it was the cc. I never thought that, just wasn't sure how to handle it last night. I carried on with 3ml cc every 2 hrs. This morning he seemed a bit perkier and has eaten a little grass and lettuce by himself (but not much).
Went back to vets this morn, they advised to stop the baytril (which I already had stopped yesterday pm). He has given me Emeprid to give him 3 times a day, reduce Metacam to 0.2ml once a day, and carry on with cc. His poops have gone back to small dark ones, but he is struggling with them, as they all seem to come at once. I have been massaging/tapping on his belly, as this seems to help. Hoping he gets stronger and gets his appetite back.

The emeprid is a gut stimulant, so that should help with getting the insides going again. Hopefully, the digestive system will settle down, but it may take a day or two. Give as much Critical Care as he will take in one go; hopefulye his appetite will perk up as he is starting to feel better in himself. The poos you are seeing reflect what has gone in yesterday or even the day before if his guts have slowed down (partial gut stasis), but it is a good sign tht they are still coming, which means that his guts haven't completely stopped. Just keep doing what you are doing now!
Make sure that you also syringe 1ml of water for every 3ml of hand feed; as much as he will take on to prevent dehydration.
Have you got an electric tooth brush which you could use for massaging?

 

[saman]

Thank you for your support, its hard to think rationally when so emotional. I had been getting 3/4ml cc in him roughly every 2 hours, but the vet said to reduce it to 2ml so it increases his appetite a little. I was a bit reluctant to, as had been trying to get as much in as poss, what do you advise :/?
He is walking around a bit now, and has just had some water by himself
Ok, I have just found an electric toothbrush that my sister leaves here for her visits, I am sure she wont mind . So do i just gently rub it over his sides/belly?