Lost our sweet Olivia this morning, trying to process it all

[Davide]

Thank you. I am drawing strength from giving to this wonderful community and getting so much goodwill back.

I've just lost my Dryw before Easter, so I totally feel about Olivia and you - Dryw's a little reminder of my Dizzy from pre-Tribe years that I adopted sight unseen because I urgently needed a baby girl in 2019 (You can see Dizzy, the chocolate, ginger and white aby, in one first pictures of the Tribe Gallery thread and Dryw has of course her own entry in my Tribe Gallery link in my signature).

If you are open for it and are patient, things will come to you. But they usually don't repeat the same way. Olivia was obviously meant for you.

Indeed, I have had a number of piggies that have obviously been meant to happen - surprise baby Tegan from my avatar is looking vaguely like my first own piggy as a teenager, born to a mother who I adopted from Mid-Wales because she looked about as similar as I gets in view of the time lapse and breed development to our first family piggy from the 70ies.
Tegan was born here totally unplanned about 3 months after I had suddenly lost my initial baby adopted Telyn (baby name Tegan) due to congenital heart failure only days after her 2nd birthday.
Incidentally, my current Blodyn (again adopted sight unseen as part of my Cornish family) is the mirror image of Telyn, who I missed terribly at the time.

There have been others; sometimes deliberately in order to keep precious memories alive, sometimes as an adoptee chosen by the rescue person aware of my piggies and my personal preferences. And sometimes by sheer chance.
What I have always been very careful about is never to name a new similarly looking piggy anything like the predecessor, so they could develop their own personality and have their own journey without any misplaced expectations of mine. I have broken that rule only once, when Heilin 'Generous' followed fairly similar looking Heini 'Lively' because of her looks so she could live with some socially difficult piggies as she had the family looks. It worked, but with the wrong sister... But I made sure I was emotionally OK with the name first.

My most special piggy of all, Minx, lived 20 years ago - my own larger-than-life, stair climbing mini-dog. While I have taken my piggy journey into a totally new direction (my big Tribe group), I have continued to adopt about every 4 years a similar looking piggy to Minx; but deliberately never one that was dead ringer for Minx because they would never be able to live up to my instinctive expectations of Minx's quirks and very strong personality, and it would not have been fair to place that emotional burden on any new arrivals. There would never be one like Minx again but those precious three years with Minx are still one of the happiest times in my life and I am very grateful to have had them, even though they were sadly cut short due to Minx's bladder stone problems.
I have always given any successors distinctly different names: Taffy 'Beloved' (Telyn's mum) in 2009, Pili Pala 'Butterfly' in 2013, Beryn 'Candytuft' in 2017 and then the Cornish family in 2022 to bring up the rear of the Tribe. Ffowlyn (2010) was a last minute spontaneous addition when her two sisters were adopted together and her mother Ffion bound to come to me. We had to smuggle her past my disapproving mother-in-law but thankfully Ffowlyn stayed put under her blanket.
Minx: It Is 10 Years Today...

My current name hang-up is Macsen 'the Greatest' who I regularly call Maelog 'Battle Prince'; they are both lilac and white boar adoptees from TEAS. Maelog was here from 2013-17 (initially as a temporary foster boar for TEAS and then as a permanent adoptee) and Macsen arrived just before the outbreak of the pandemic in 2020 as slow dater for Beryn, failed narrowly but stayed on because of Lockdown...

No matter how many piggies you have, there is always a big gap in the room whenever one leaves that you have to gradually get used to; all those instinctive, unthinking little things you do over the course of a day that connect you are the hardest bit to basically unlearn and stop doing. The worst for me is counting out the pieces of pepper and cucumber correctly during prep; that always takes me ages to get used to.

Right now, I am missing my sweet little madam Dryw 'Wren' very much. It still hurts somewhat to see different piggies now inhabiting her corner of the room whenever I look across. But that is normal and it is the price we pay for all the love and joy our piggies bring into our lives. Some of the mechanics of the grieving process get eventually a little bit easier because you can recognise them for what they are but the loss of an always unique bond and relationship never gets less painful.

And of course, I can no longer go and wait for another suitable adoptee to come along. Even before my cancer diagnosis I had started to downsize and had adopted my Cornish family to bring up the rear of my personal piggy journey by fulfilling my last bucket dream of adopting a ready-made group right in the darkest days of the 'Big Dying' when I stopped being able to process my grief and went just numb. Sadly, some of the piggies I lost during that period have just kind of disappeared in a general mush of total grieving misery.

But my Cornish Family are going to remain my youngest piggies, bringing up the end of my Tribe story.
And that in itself is a very bitter-sweet journey. It is a very drawn-out grieving process for an important part of my life as well as all the many different and wonderful pigsonalities I have been blessed to share my very own life journey with. Life with a terminal illness is a very bitter-sweet journey because you are aware that time is running out and that things won't be coming back nor can you jump on the roundabout when they are coming round again. You have to savour the moments and make the most of that because if you do that - like you love your piggy every day - then you can be sad by the end of it but you can also look back and leave behind a life filled with meaningful content and lots of love.

Hi Wiebke, I hope you're doing well this morning.
What I've always liked in all your writing is how deep and specific you can get about the piggies personalities. Me and Marti are the same, we talk about their character, their body language, their facial expressions (which indeed they have), their likes and dislikes, their similarities (a few) and their differences (often many). I could go on for hours talking about them, is just that aside from me and Marti talking to each other, we don't really find much understanding on the receiving end. That's one reason why the forum has been so valuable.

So sorry about little Dryw, you have a big heart going through many losses and still feel each new one the way that you do. But when you have similarities with a previous piggie, I guess it can feel like you're also losing that one again.

I know that, along with the pain of not having Olivia in my daily life anymore, this loss is stirring up memories of losing Nocciola, who was the other piggies with which I had an extra strong bond, and of losing Matilde in 2023, in a very similar situation to what occured with Olivia. I was home alone for a week, Matilde was bleeding from peeing and was getting progressively worse in the course of the week. I had to feed her constantly while a tooth infection was making me scream from the pain, all while Martina was away because she had a family emergency in Italy. Matilde passed away when Martina was 30min away from landing back in Birmingham. It was very traumatic for both of us.

I can say looking at me and Marti today, that the adrenaline has left. We are both running on fumes, bursting occasionally into tears, which makes us even more tired. If I learned one thing is that I need to allow this process to happen, whatever shape it takes.

We have had a young boy reserved from a rescue earlier in the year. We postponed picking him up to after our holiday in March. Then Olivia started bleeding, and the vet recommended waiting for her to improve. When she did improve 10 days ago, the vet gave us the greenlight to pick him up after Easter, so the boy is waiting for us to pick him up this weekend.

On one hand this boy has waited enough and he deserves a loving home, plus our remaining piggie Ginny is not very social with us, which means eventually she will need companionship and shouldn't stay a single piggie. On the other hand obviously, everything is so raw right now that we question what we should do.

My angle is that the little boy has waited enough, and we can have the mindset of him being a boarder for now, and let whatever should happen, happen. It is not ideal, but nothing about this situation is ideal. I'd feel good giving a loving home to the little guy, and I know I'd feel good if Ginny can be happy again with a companion.

If I have to be honest part of me also want to break the silence in the house asap, but I want to make sure I go through the grieving of Olivia properly, without trying to take shortcuts, as that would not be right for such a love of my life

 

[CTWC]

You are both such thoughtful and caring people that is clear, I know you say this boy has been waiting but if you need a bit more time it isn't going to harm him and as you you want it to be right. Provided that Ginny isn't suffering being alone that is of course x

 

[Davide]

You are both such thoughtful and caring people that is clear, I know you say this boy has been waiting but if you need a bit more time it isn't going to harm him and as you you want it to be right. Provided that Ginny isn't suffering being alone that is of course x

Thank you so much for the kind words Yeah, our thoughts on this are mostly about Ginny to be honest. We might be not ready emotionally or even physically, but we don't want her to suffer because of this.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke, I hope you're doing well this morning.
What I've always liked in all your writing is how deep and specific you can get about the piggies personalities. Me and Marti are the same, we talk about their character, their body language, their facial expressions (which indeed they have), their likes and dislikes, their similarities (a few) and their differences (often many). I could go on for hours talking about them, is just that aside from me and Marti talking to each other, we don't really find much understanding on the receiving end. That's one reason why the forum has been so valuable.

So sorry about little Dryw, you have a big heart going through many losses and still feel each new one the way that you do. But when you have similarities with a previous piggie, I guess it can feel like you're also losing that one again.

I know that, along with the pain of not having Olivia in my daily life anymore, this loss is stirring up memories of losing Nocciola, who was the other piggies with which I had an extra strong bond, and of losing Matilde in 2023, in a very similar situation to what occured with Olivia. I was home alone for a week, Matilde was bleeding from peeing and was getting progressively worse in the course of the week. I had to feed her constantly while a tooth infection was making me scream from the pain, all while Martina was away because she had a family emergency in Italy. Matilde passed away when Martina was 30min away from landing back in Birmingham. It was very traumatic for both of us.

I can say looking at me and Marti today, that the adrenaline has left. We are both running on fumes, bursting occasionally into tears, which makes us even more tired. If I learned one thing is that I need to allow this process to happen, whatever shape it takes.

We have had a young boy reserved from a rescue earlier in the year. We postponed picking him up to after our holiday in March. Then Olivia started bleeding, and the vet recommended waiting for her to improve. When she did improve 10 days ago, the vet gave us the greenlight to pick him up after Easter, so the boy is waiting for us to pick him up this weekend.

On one hand this boy has waited enough and he deserves a loving home, plus our remaining piggie Ginny is not very social with us, which means eventually she will need companionship and shouldn't stay a single piggie. On the other hand obviously, everything is so raw right now that we question what we should do.

My angle is that the little boy has waited enough, and we can have the mindset of him being a boarder for now, and let whatever should happen, happen. It is not ideal, but nothing about this situation is ideal. I'd feel good giving a loving home to the little guy, and I know I'd feel good if Ginny can be happy again with a companion.

If I have to be honest part of me also want to break the silence in the house asap, but I want to make sure I go through the grieving of Olivia properly, without trying to take shortcuts, as that would not be right for such a love of my life

You can explain the situation to the rescue.

You could pick up the boy as planned but to live in a divided cage next to Ginny for a while while she and you are grieving in order to give her the company she will need soon. Give her and the new boy time to get used to each other and to make friends through the bars - however, as with every piggy you need to speak to the rescue if they do not bond. Even if with the most careful preparation, by far not all bonding attempts come off because you can never predict the dynamics between the piggies involved.

But the boy could serve as a bit of a paw-holder for Ginny when her need for companionship becomes more urgent before you become open for new company. He will be coming for a holiday with you, with ideally the option to return him if Ginny doesn't take to him, so you do not have to feel you have to give him your full emotional attention until you are ready but Ginny is not alone and is not putting extra pressure on you.

It all depends on whether the rescue is OK with it.

There are similar traits and I appreciate it when I get more with an adoptee than I expected but I always try to see my piggies as unique personalities in their own right. For me, they are people in fur coats. To the degree that I have started to comment on people having a serious fear-aggression problem instead of them trying to desperately mask their own insecurity and low self-respect by overdoing the macho behaviour...

PS: Thank you. I have already cleaned two piggy cages and washed a couple of loads, which is more than I could do last month so I am getting slowly better and stronger. This despite having hurt my hip muscles from trying to push them too far when walking unaided (which is subtly but crucially not quite the same as walking with the aid of a trolley. Even after several weeks, I am currently still not able to walk far before it starts getting painful but it is now finally and slowly easing. More patience and persistence needed...

Dryw's companion Llinos has thankfully settled in very well with her new friends. Not the ones I hoped, what is new in that respect?

But I have to admit that I also like certain piggy 'models' because they keep happy memories alive just by how they look or move and with their little quirks and I just comfortable for having them around.

 

[Davide]

You can explain the situation to the rescue.

You could pick up the boy as planned but to live in a divided cage next to Ginny for a while while she and you are grieving but to give her the company she will need soon. Give her and the new boy time to get used to each other and to make friends through the bars - however, as with every piggy you need to speak to the rescue if they do not bond. Even if with the most careful preparation, by far not all bonding attempts come of because you can never predict the dynamics between the piggies involved.

But the boy could serve as a bit of a paw-holder for Ginny when her need for companionship becomes more urgent before you become open for new company. He will be coming for a holiday with you, with ideally the option to return him if Ginny doesn't take to him, so you do not have to feel you have to give him your full emotional attention until you are ready but Ginny is not alone and is not putting pressure on you.

It all depends on whether the rescue is OK with it.

There are similar traits and I appreciate when I get more with an adoptee than I expected but I always try to see my piggies as unique personalities in their own right. For me, they are people in fur coats. To the degree that I have started to comment on people about them having a serious fear-aggression problem instead of them trying to desperately masking their own insecurity and low self-respect by overdoing the macho behaviour...

But I have to admit that I also like certain piggy 'models' because they keep happy memories alive just by how they look or move and with their little quirks and I just comfortable for having them around.

Thank you so much Wiebke, I think we've been lucky as every time we adopted, the new one for together well with the other/a. Only one time I think the bond was not very good, but the piggie we adopted that time turned out to have lymphoma and unfortunately we had to say goodbye after just 3 months, so the attempted companionship was necessarily cut short.

Just a few things I'd like to ask, I checked the single pig resource but I think these questions are specific to our situation

- we would definitely bring Ginny to the rescue for a meet and greet with the boy, to check each one's acceptance of the other. Is that any less reliable given how recent the loss is?

- I think our cage (which is quite big) has the option of putting a divider inside. Would that work like 2 separate cages for them? Otherwise I think we have 2 smaller cages stored somewhere, we can replace the current one so that 2 cages can fit in the room (hopefully! We'd have to try)

- How would we know if/when it's time to put them in the same cage?

- Could they still have floor time together, while they're separated?

Thank you so much in advance for all the help on this

 

[Merab]

After losing Keziah I wasn’t ready for another piggy.
Merab and Jemimah were fine.
Then I stumbled upon Priscilla and Phoebe who needed a new home.
I didn’t feel quite ready to love them but it didn’t take them long to carve their places I my heart.
No piggy can ever be a replacement but when you have as much love in your hearts as you do it needs someone or some pig else to flow into.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much Wiebke, I think we've been lucky as every time we adopted, the new one for together well with the other/a. Only one time I think the bond was not very good, but the piggie we adopted that time turned out to have lymphoma and unfortunately we had to say goodbye after just 3 months, so the attempted companionship was necessarily cut short.

Just a few things I'd like to ask, I checked the single pig resource but I think these questions are specific to our situation

- we would definitely bring Ginny to the rescue for a meet and greet with the boy, to check each one's acceptance of the other. Is that any less reliable given how recent the loss is?

- I think our cage (which is quite big) has the option of putting a divider inside. Would that work like 2 separate cages for them? Otherwise I think we have 2 smaller cages stored somewhere, we can replace the current one so that 2 cages can fit in the room (hopefully! We'd have to try)

- How would we know if/when it's time to put them in the same cage?

- Could they still have floor time together, while they're separated?

Thank you so much in advance for all the help on this

To answer your questions:

- A divided cage will work better than two separate ones because it allows full body interactoion and communication on all levels at all times (body language, pheromones/scent, vocalisation).

- If you do an intro at the rescue and it goes well, then please bond straight away.
If it is a maybe, you can try a split cage or you could think about a young sub-adult or ideally sb-teenage pair of sows that cannot challenge Ginny - provided the rescue has got some. A pair will instantly promote Ginny to group leader (status enhancement) but you have can get back to a trio at once. I don't know what Ginny's previous group status was as that has often helped me to gauge the odds a little better

This latter rescue trip could of course be delayed but may be worth discussing with the rescue lady now. As sad as it is to point out, Olivia's unexpected passing is opening up new avenues for you and @MartiDavi which you may want to discuss and think through.
As long as Ginny is eating and drinking, you have the grace to wait.

- Acceptance from an acutely grieving sow can be slower while they are still in the withdrawn stage. Any piggy that is out and about and not subdued is generally more ready to get on with life. You have to play that depending on how Ginny is taking her loss. However, having new company is usually perking up grieving piggies unless they had an exceptionally close bond.

- Guinea pigs don't do play time. Every direct meet is for them a full-on bonding session. So it's either full-on bonding or divider.
Slow-bonding, like it is touted on social media, is essentially a human fears based cop out method to cut out the whole instinctive bonding process by suppressing any essential dominance behaviours. But it does not respect guinea pig social wiring and needs in the least.

I hope that helps you? I know that a new piggy or piggies is not a question of love for you but that you feel not ready for a new journey yet.

Have a chat with the rescue lady and see what is possible from her end. If you need more time and Ginny is hanging in there, then by all means take it.

 

[waffleu]

I'm so sorry for your loss </33

 

[Davide]

Hi

- A divided cage will work better than two separate ones because it allows full body interactoion and communication on all levels at all times (body language, pheromones/scent, vocalisation).

- If you do an intro at the rescue and it goes well, then please bond straight away.
If it is a maybe, you can try a split cage or you could think about a young sub-adult or ideally sb-teenage pair of sows that cannot challenge Ginny - provided the rescue has got some. A pair will instantly promote Ginny to group leader (status enhancement) but you have can get back to a trio at once. I don't know what Ginny's previous group status was as that has often helped me to gauge the odds a little better - this latter rescue trip could of course be delayed but may be worth discussing with the rescue lady now since, as sad as it is to point out, Olivia's unexpected passing is opening up new avenues for you and @MartiDavi which you may want to discuss and think through.
As long as Ginny is eating and drinking, you have the grace to wait.

- Acceptance from an acutely grieving sow can be slower while they are still in the withdrawn stage. Any piggy that is out and about and not subdued is generally more ready to get on with life. You have to play that depending on how Ginny is taking her loss. However, having new company is usually perking up grieving piggies unless they had an exceptionally close bond.

- Guinea pigs don't do play time. Every direct meet is for them a full-on bonding session. So it's either full-on bonding or divider.
Slow-bonding, like it is touted on social media, is essentially a human fears based cop out method to cut out the whole instinctive bonding process by suppressing any essential dominance behaviours. But it does not respect guinea pig social wiring and needs in the least.

I hope that helps you? I know that a new piggy or piggies is not a question of love for you but that you feel not ready for a new journey yet.

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to reply so in depth

Ginny was definitely the more submissive one and very close to Mia when they were a trio, and still submissive when it was only Olivia and Ginny.
Ginny was also the youngest one, a bit younger than Mia and significantly younger than Olivia. Olivia has always been the dominant.

Ginny liked Olivia, but I wouldn't say it was an extremely strong bond. We still have time to monitor Ginny for the rest of today and tomorrow anyway, to see how she's doing. She's eating and drinking fine so far, but knowing her we're sure she will miss the company.

As for the play-time: we always thought, surely from reading wrong sources ages ago now, that the cage plaid a role in a territorial aspect, and that outside of the cage the dynamics were different/more easy. Good to finally set this right for us!

 

[Davide]

After losing Keziah I wasn’t ready for another piggy.
Merab and Jemimah were fine.
Then I stumbled upon Priscilla and Phoebe who needed a new home.
I didn’t feel quite ready to love them but it didn’t take them long to carve their places I my heart.
No piggy can ever be a replacement but when you have as much love in your hearts as you do it needs someone or some pig else to flow into.

Thank you @Merab. Having gone through this process ourselves a few times now, this has become a bit less of a mystery (which doesn't mean any easier, unfortunately). There is less fear now that I might be consciously or subconsciously trying to replace the loss, as my heart knows from experience that it's impossible. I just want to give myself rest and the adequate grief time, while keeping Ginny's needs very much at the center. The last part of your message I find brutally honest and resonates with me a lot.

 

[Wiebke]

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to reply so in depth

Ginny was definitely the more submissive one and very close to Mia when they were a trio, and still submissive when it was only Olivia and Ginny.
Ginny was also the youngest one, a bit younger than Mia and significantly younger than Olivia. Olivia has always been the dominant.

Ginny liked Olivia, but I wouldn't say it was an extremely strong bond. We still have time to monitor Ginny for the rest of today and tomorrow anyway, to see how she's doing. She's eating and drinking fine so far, but knowing her we're sure she will miss the company.

As for the play-time: we always thought, surely from reading wrong sources ages ago now, that the cage plaid a role in a territorial aspect, and that outside of the cage the dynamics were different/more easy. Good to finally set this right for us!

An inhabited cage is territorial, so any bonding has to happen on neutral territory that is not part of either piggy's territory outside it; only a totally new cage counts as neutral ground.

You can take as long as you want in the run up, but what you cannot do is short play dates on neutral territory - once you commit, you have to see it through or abort for good if it is not working out. Once sows have made up their mind that they don't like a piggy, they usually don't change their mind.

What you should not do on neutral ground is little tester meeting/play dates/ aborted bonding sessions at the first sign of dominance. It cuts right across your guinea pigs social wiring and is very upsetting/frustrating for them.

Move the newly bonded piggies to the cleaned and rearranged cage only when you are sure that they have really settled down together; if necessary leave them in the bonding area overnight to allow them to work through the roughest part of the bonding process outside the cage. It makes for much quieter and smoother settling into their new cage territory.

What we call the bonding is basically the introduction and the hierarchy establishment.
It takes about another 2 weeks on average to establish the new group in their territory until the full bonding process is complete. In the case of mixed gender bonding, the first shared season (usually a stronger than normal one) is part of the bonding process. The pheromones and the emotional excess are serving to confirm and cement their bond.

I hope that this makes it clear? It is still a guide of mine I hope I will be at some point well enough to write.

 

[Davide]

Thank you @Wiebke , all is clear!
I'll share all this with Martina tomorrow if we're planning on going to the rescue on Sunday. Hope to see that guide one day, for many reasons

The working day has passed, it has been rough. I managed at lunch to have a quick call with my therapist who's on holiday this week, I cried for 10 minutes straight while telling what happened. I am thankful for his availability, as I gave him very little notice.

Martina is resting, she is completely depleted now.
I have now finished work 30minutes ago but I'm still at my desk, I dread going back into the silence of the living room, that still has all the mess from our days constantly looking after Olivia. The cushions with critical care on them in front of the cage, the towels we used to keep her more comfortable while holding her, kitchen towels with veggies and syringes everywhere. Please root for me as I find the courage to go there and start at least tidying up a bit.

In the moments like when I was trying to feed Olivia at 4am in there, I wished for all that to end as soon as possible, obviously with a good outcome. Now it's almost like I don't want to touch it, that if I tidy up it will be a painful reminder that the fight is over.

Sorry if I keep this going. I know we've all been through this and every loss is a terrible experience for all of us. I just need someone to talk to that understands this, that's all.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you @Wiebke , all is clear!
I'll share all this with Martina tomorrow if we're planning on going to the rescue on Sunday. Hope to see that guide one day, for many reasons

The working day has passed, it has been rough. I managed at lunch to have a quick call with my therapist who's on holiday this week, I cried for 10 minutes straight while telling what happened. I am thankful for his availability, as I gave him very little notice.

Martina is resting, she is completely depleted now.
I have now finished work 30minutes ago but I'm still at my desk, I dread going back into the silence of the living room, that still has all the mess from our days constantly looking after Olivia. The cushions with critical care on them in front of the cage, the towels we used to keep her more comfortable while holding her, kitchen towels with veggies and syringes everywhere. Please root for me as I find the courage to go there and start at least tidying up a bit.

In the moments like when I was trying to feed Olivia at 4am in there, I wished for all that to end as soon as possible, obviously with a good outcome. Now it's almost like I don't want to touch it, that if I tidy up it will be a painful reminder that the fight is over.

Sorry if I keep this going. I know we've all been through this and every loss is a terrible experience for all of us. I just need someone to talk to that understands this, that's all.

HUGS

Good that you have been able to let some of it out. It's been a gruelling and devastating week for both of you.

If you cannot find the courage for yourself, try to find the courage for Martina. It is much easier when you are doing something for somebody you love in order to spare them extra pain. Try to focus on that and not so much on the things you are tidying away or are tidying up.

 

[Davide]

Martina is asleep now, she told me that when we were looking after Olivia and taking turns to sleep, she didn't really sleep. She kept thinking about what we could possibly do, and didn't close an eye.

Just earlier I had a memory of Olivia eating pellets on her own from the bowl on Monday afternoon, only 3 days before saying goodbye, and I started questioning everything again, our choices and the vet's advices.

We cleaned up the cage together, we should have done it sooner but just couldn't. It was heartbreaking.
But I got to do some quality time with Ginny in my lap. She seemed to enjoy it, even if by my metrics I wouldn't say she's very human oriented, on the contrary.

I am now left wondering if it would be of any comfort for Ginny if I sleep in the living room, if she would feel less lonely tonight. If any of you has any insight on this it could help because to be honest I'm dreading sleeping in front of the cage, having spent the last few days there desperately trying to make Olivia eat.

I know this is all normal and part of the process but God it's so hard.

 

[Wiebke]

Martina is asleep now, she told me that when we were looking after Olivia and taking turns to sleep, she didn't really sleep. She kept thinking about what we could possibly do, and didn't close an eye.

Just earlier I had a memory of Olivia eating pellets on her own from the bowl on Monday afternoon, only 3 days before saying goodbye, and I started questioning everything again, our choices and the vet's advices.

We cleaned up the cage together, we should have done it sooner but just couldn't. It was heartbreaking.
But I got to do some quality time with Ginny in my lap. She seemed to enjoy it, even if by my metrics I wouldn't say she's very human oriented, on the contrary.

I am now left wondering if it would be of any comfort for Ginny if I sleep in the living room, if she would feel less lonely tonight. If any of you has any insight on this it could help because to be honest I'm dreading sleeping in front of the cage, having spent the last few days there desperately trying to make Olivia eat.

I know this is all normal and part of the process but God it's so hard.

Please look after yourself and you both get some much needed sleep before your brains totally frazzle. You won't be any good if you both fall to pieces. The first rule of any carer is to look after themselves because they are no good if they fall ill or get incapacited and are unable to provide care.

Ginny is going to survive the night and the next few nights. Leave her with something of Olivia's that still has her scent or that she loved snuggling to use for herself but please finally look after yourselves and use some common sense. Make sure that you get as much rest as you can for as long as you need as soon as your adrenaline finally runs out and make sure that the two of you get to a stage where you can think straight again, and drive safely as well. You are no use to Ginny if you are not fit to leave your home.

This is Big Mamma speaking- Go to bed and sleep NOW and don't try to solve any more problems or question your actions until you have had enough sleep to count how many spaghetti I am holding up correctly.

You couldn't have done more for Olivia and you could not have saved her under the circumstances. But you can do her the favour of getting yourselves back in order so you are fit and able to sort out Ginny's future. Olivia would rather party with her friends than worry about you.

 

[Davide]

Thanks @Wiebke, I heard you loud and clear and went straight to bed. Me and Martina had adequate sleep after Thursday morning, not good sleep but still. We are just mostly emotionally wrecked, and the next step probably is we need to force ourselves to eat more.

Ginny has been occasionally crying when peeing since yesterday and lost some weight, not a scary amount but still. We called our vet but they have no appointments for next week, they told us to call back on Monday. Either they find a slot or we will have to take her somewhere else.
I'm thinking for now we start topping up her food with critical care, try to get a sample of urine if we manage to bring to the vet when we have an appointment. I'm still of the idea of getting her a companion this weekend, not sure if not knowing if she has something bacterial, they should stay divided until we figure it out.

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks @Wiebke, I heard you loud and clear and went straight to bed. Me and Martina had adequate sleep after Thursday morning, not good sleep but still. We are just mostly emotionally wrecked, and the next step probably is we need to force ourselves to eat more.

Ginny has been occasionally crying when peeing since yesterday and lost some weight, not a scary amount but still. We called our vet but they have no appointments for next week, they told us to call back on Monday. Either they find a slot or we will have to take her somewhere else.
I'm thinking for now we start topping up her food with critical care, try to get a sample of urine if we manage to bring to the vet when we have an appointment. I'm still of the idea of getting her a companion this weekend, not sure if not knowing if she has something bacterial, they should stay divided until we figure it out.

HUGS

I am very sorry that Ginny is reacting to the loss of Olivia. Have you still got some metacam from Olivia?

Would you consider getting two companions for Ginny? It will give you a much needed emotional bolster and you have previously done well with trios. Ideally somepigs that cannot challenge her.

Take care of yourselves and continue to sleep and rest as much as you can.

Sorry for giving you your marching orders yesterday evening but you were not in a good place, and your sleep deprivation was making it worse. Glad that both of you have finally had some proper sleep.

You are going to feel grotty for a little while longer between the sleep deprivation and the adrenaline overproduction, which has mobilised all your extra facilities. That has nothing to do with your grieving directly; it's just your physical payback for overtaxing yourself.
All you can do is hang in there, sleep, rest and have a relaxing bath or shower or a little sensory walk (weather permitting) to try and rebalance yourselves as much as you can around your work commitments and being there for Ginny. Make sure that you look after your body as much as you can because that also influences your mental state.

Have a look through old pictures and remind yourselves of the good times with all your piggies if it doesn't hurt too much - this can go either direction, so you have to try different things and see what works for you best this time round. Each individual bond is unique and so is each grieving process.

 

[Davide]

HUGS

I am very sorry that Ginny is reacting to the loss of Olivia. Have you still got some metacam from Olivia?

Would you consider getting two companions for Ginny? It will give you a much needed emotional bolster and you have previously done well with trios. Ideally somepigs that cannot challenge her.

Take care of yourselves and continue to sleep and rest as much as you can.

Sorry for giving you your marching orders yesterday evening but you were not in a good place, and your sleep deprivation was making it worse. Glad that both of you have finally had some proper sleep.

You are going to feel grotty for a little while longer between the sleep deprivation and the adrenaline overproduction, which has mobilised all your extra facilities. That has nothing to do with your grieving directly; it's just your physical payback for overtaxing yourself.
All you can do is hang in there, sleep, rest and have a relaxing bath or shower or a little sensory walk (weather permitting) to try and rebalance yourselves as much as you can around your work commitments and being there for Ginny. Make sure that you look after your body as much as you can because that also influences your mental state.

Have a look through old pictures and remind yourselves of the good times with all your piggies if it doesn't hurt too much - this can go either direction, so you have to try different things and see what works for you best this time round. Each individual bond is unique and so is each grieving process.

Thanks @Wiebke. Don't worry I know you were talking from a place of care for us.

We just spent some time looking at videos of the trio during floor time, they were simply amazing, they always got along so well, loved exploring the house and absolutely loved us. We were the 4th and 5th piggie of the group for them. I miss not just Olivia, but the trio itself, and wish we would have gotten back to a trio shortly after Mia's passing in November, the situation would be a bit different now for us and for Ginny if we did.

Since you mentioned it, I wanted to ask you if it could be ok to adopt the little guy, who should be about 1 year old now, and perhaps either a baby girl or a young girl, around 6 months or so. We have no idea of the availability of the rescue, and I'm not sure we're both on board with the idea , we'll find out both things tomorrow, but I'd ask you now to be more prepared.

We do have plenty of metacam unfortunately, but haven't been able to talk to a vet. We can try and get some advice over the phone but our vet usually doesn't do that. Generally speaking I think by now we should sometime be able to take initiative since we got quite a bit of experience now. A little metacam won't hurt Ginny, and it might make it easier for her until we see a vet. Very interested to know what your approach should be.

I hope you are having a good Saturday morning, sending you a big hug.

 

[Davide]

Sorry @Wiebke correction, the boy is 9 months old!

 

[CTWC]

 

[Wiebke]

Thanks @Wiebke. Don't worry I know you were talking from a place of care for us.

We just spent some time looking at videos of the trio during floor time, they were simply amazing, they always got along so well, loved exploring the house and absolutely loved us. We were the 4th and 5th piggie of the group for them. I miss not just Olivia, but the trio itself, and wish we would have gotten back to a trio shortly after Mia's passing in November, the situation would be a bit different now for us and for Ginny if we did.

Since you mentioned it, I wanted to ask you if it could be ok to adopt the little guy, who should be about 1 year old now, and perhaps either a baby girl or a young girl, around 6 months or so. We have no idea of the availability of the rescue, and I'm not sure we're both on board with the idea , we'll find out both things tomorrow, but I'd ask you now to be more prepared.

We do have plenty of metacam unfortunately, but haven't been able to talk to a vet. We can try and get some advice over the phone but our vet usually doesn't do that. Generally speaking I think by now we should sometime be able to take initiative since we got quite a bit of experience now. A little metacam won't hurt Ginny, and it might make it easier for her until we see a vet. Very interested to know what your approach should be.

I hope you are having a good Saturday morning, sending you a big hug.

Yes, you can adopt a little sow with your boy, as long as all piggies get along. I know that it is emotionally too soon for you but on the other hand, it will feel more emotionally comfortable to have your accustomed piggy sound levels back in the house - something that is rather subconscious but nevertheless going to contribute to your mental health frame. You are also not going to be straight back in the same situation as you are now if something goes wrong with Ginny.

Of course, it depends on how boisterous the teenage boy is and how Ginny is taking that but you would at least have the younger sow as fallback option to hopefully bring back home alone with Ginny. I have often not come home from rescue dating with the reserved piggy but with a very happy unexpected bond. Just try to keep an open mind - whatever makes Ginny happy. It could also be an older piggy.

 

[Davide]

We did a lot of crying today, I managed to write something to Olivia in my rainbow piggies notebook, and started putting together an album with her photos, but all while being very depleted state.
We lost 8 of our 9 piggies now over the course of 12 years, only one of them made it to her 5th birthday, Lenticchia, who lived up to be 6.5.
I so so wished that Olivia would be the other exception, but I was also starting to brace for the worst the moment she turned 4. This meant even more love and care and attention, and even a stronger bond in the past 5 months.
I was completely crazy for her, and so was Martina.

I can't help thinking that maybe our level of knowledge is not up there yet, and around the age when things start to get more tricky, we lose the plot a bit. I keep thinking if it was just pure chance, we could also have had one or two piggies that lived up to be 7 or 8.

But please ignore my thoughts, the main thing is Ginny is definitely painful when urinating, she's been crying a lot in the last hour. I caught her peeing a very white urine 30 minutes ago. She had some metacam this morning around 11:00, and we plan on giving her glucosamine ongoing at least until we get her checked. Going to also get some cranberry juice, as that is supposed to help a bit. We'll weigh her daily for now, moving to twice if we don't like what we see between now and Monday. I'll research the forum for advice on diet. She's on the lowest calcium bottled water we could find. And we'll ring the vet on Monday morning hoping they can fit us in. The timing of this is unbelievable but we have to deal it with it. I hope we don't end up with an emergency out of hours appointment, which would probably be a waste of time since we'd see a non-exotic vet.
Any advice is VERY welcome as we're not completely thinking straight.

 

[Wiebke]

We did a lot of crying today, I managed to write something to Olivia in my rainbow piggies notebook, and started putting together an album with her photos, but all while being very depleted state.
We lost 8 of our 9 piggies now over the course of 12 years, only one of them made it to her 5th birthday, Lenticchia, who lived up to be 6.5.
I so so wished that Olivia would be the other exception, but I was also starting to brace for the worst the moment she turned 4. This meant even more love and care and attention, and even a stronger bond in the past 5 months.
I was completely crazy for her, and so was Martina.

I can't help thinking that maybe our level of knowledge is not up there yet, and around the age when things start to get more tricky, we lose the plot a bit. I keep thinking if it was just pure chance, we could also have had one or two piggies that lived up to be 7 or 8.

But please ignore my thoughts, the main thing is Ginny is definitely painful when urinating, she's been crying a lot in the last hour. I caught her peeing a very white urine 30 minutes ago. She had some metacam this morning around 11:00, and we plan on giving her glucosamine ongoing at least until we get her checked. Going to also get some cranberry juice, as that is supposed to help a bit. We'll weigh her daily for now, moving to twice if we don't like what we see between now and Monday. I'll research the forum for advice on diet. She's on the lowest calcium bottled water we could find. And we'll ring the vet on Monday morning hoping they can fit us in. The timing of this is unbelievable but we have to deal it with it. I hope we don't end up with an emergency out of hours appointment, which would probably be a waste of time since we'd see a non-exotic vet.
Any advice is VERY welcome as we're not completely thinking straight.

Hi

It could be the start of a sterile interstitial cystitis. Have you tested the white calcium pees whether they contain any hard crystals? Because the other possibility could be bladder sludge.

Please be aware that your diet could actually now be too low in calcium and that you have got out of the sweet spot in the diet where the potassium : calcium : phosphorus is no longer balanced. Going too low can be as detrimental as going too high.

That could account for a string members with anxiety issues having problems because they are trying to be extra good, when 'extra good' is exactly the wrong thing. This is just a personal observation, of course, and by no means backed up. Please go back to a normal diet.
Calcium pees are characteristic of a diet too low in calcium and they are also characteristic of the onset of sterile IC.

It is not quite as straight forward as when the calcium : phosphorus ratio came into fashion but (hard) water and pellets were not taken into account.

The diet we recommend works for many places. You have a bit more leeway with veg high in calcium in soft water areas (like most of the USA and Canada) whereas the UK is a tpyically hard water country - hence the string of stones we got. However, my filtered water still allows me a weekly serving of greens (high oxalates don't contribute as much to stones as initially thought).

I haven't had a stone since the wake of the first Pandemic lockdown when getting hold of low calcium veg for 27 piggies with a once weekly supermarket trip was pretty impossible. One week, I ended up with just 5 very sorry looking peppers for all of them for 7 days! No low calcium lettuce etc. available... Sadly Teggy ended up with an emergency op for a large urethral stone as a result.

Just use the normal diet recommendations and try not go further and further down with the calcium as you are making any problem worse.

Wiebke's Guide to Pees and Stones
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[Davide]

Morning all, again thanks for your message @Wiebke. We haven't really done adjustments to Ginny's diet, she still has pellets and normal bottled water so calcium intake should not be too low.
We'll open a thread for Ginny in the health section after seeing the vet, as this is not really the right place, and we'll take it from there.

Aside from the above, today seems to be just as rough for us as yesterday or the day before, so I feel like letting some of it out might help.

It's been a very rough awakening this morning, there was almost no time between opening my eyes and bursting into tears. Waking up from sleep at this stage catches you completely unprepared, unfortunately.

I am bothered by how bright it is outside, for some reason we always said goodbye to our babies in spring or summer. There's been only two exceptions, Mia and Cecilia. Cecilia passed away on December 29th about 30 minutes before we'd pick her up from the boarding. But Cecilia was an adoptee who we found out had lymphoma immediately after adopting her, and she only lived for 3 months after we adopted her. We were as braced as one can be for her passing.
The contrast between how bright it is outside and how dark it is inside us seems to make having to adapt to the new normal even more upsetting, makes me refuse the new reality even more, like the outside and inside parts of my life are impossible to line up, they don't fit anymore. I was so ready to spend the summer, when I have more free time, with Olivia, Ginny and the new boy. I was ready for tons of quality time in the free weekends and to spoil her like even more than I did in the past 3 years. I was ready to be super worried about the heat waves and to spend a lot of time checking the room temperature for them, like I did every summer. Me and Marti had plans to not go ok holidays together for the rest of the year, so that Olivia could be monitored by at least one of us constantly. All these things I was looking forward to, and all the small (but huge for what they meant to us) gestures that Olivia did everyday with us...I miss everything so much.

It also bothers me that, aside from the forum, Martina and my therapist, no one has really showed up and reached out with just pure support. They are all just waiting for me to reboot and for all to be well again, the idea of which I find kind of repulsive right now.

I think it'll be very painful to go to the rescue today, the memories of picking up Olivia 3 years ago (almost exactly, her gotcha day was just 2 weeks ago) will surely occupy most if not all the space in my heart and my mind. I am concerned I'll feel nothing for the new one/s, and though I've been in that exact situation before, most of us did, I find it so unfair to them. But at this stage maybe I have to accept that until the edge of the pain is a bit softer, I can really only be a passenger along for the ride.
I hope that at least, when it's time to leave for the rescue, it will be have gotten a bit more cloudy.

I'll make a point of continuing working on Olivia's photo album, and to write more about her in my rainbow piggies notebook. Maybe me and Marti will be able to sit together and write a tribute in the rainbow section, it'd be nice if we could. But really we can only take it as it comes right now.

I know this stage has not been easy with any of my recent rainbow piggies, Rudi, Matilde, Mia...I'll attach a picture of them below, they were so loved and are so missed...but this one is hitting me a lot harder. The bond and the connection with Olivia were just at a different level

Photo 1 and 2: Mia
Photo 3, 4 and 6: gorgeous Rudi
Photo 5 and 7: little Matilde

 

[VickiA]

I’m so very sorry to read your thread. I can feel your grief at losing your precious girl. Sending you hugs x

 

[Wiebke]

Morning all, again thanks for your message @Wiebke. We haven't really done adjustments to Ginny's diet, she still has pellets and normal bottled water so calcium intake should not be too low.
We'll open a thread for Ginny in the health section after seeing the vet, as this is not really the right place, and we'll take it from there.

Aside from the above, today seems to be just as rough for us as yesterday or the day before, so I feel like letting some of it out might help.

It's been a very rough awakening this morning, there was almost no time between opening my eyes and bursting into tears. Waking up from sleep at this stage catches you completely unprepared, unfortunately.

I am bothered by how bright it is outside, for some reason we always said goodbye to our babies in spring or summer. There's been only two exceptions, Mia and Cecilia. Cecilia passed away on December 29th about 30 minutes before we'd pick her up from the boarding. But Cecilia was an adoptee who we found out had lymphoma immediately after adopting her, and she only lived for 3 months after we adopted her. We were as braced as one can be for her passing.
The contrast between how bright it is outside and how dark it is inside us seems to make having to adapt to the new normal even more upsetting, makes me refuse the new reality even more, like the outside and inside parts of my life are impossible to line up, they don't fit anymore. I was so ready to spend the summer, when I have more free time, with Olivia, Ginny and the new boy. I was ready for tons of quality time in the free weekends and to spoil her like even more than I did in the past 3 years. I was ready to be super worried about the heat waves and to spend a lot of time checking the room temperature for them, like I did every summer. Me and Marti had plans to not go ok holidays together for the rest of the year, so that Olivia could be monitored by at least one of us constantly. All these things I was looking forward to, and all the small (but huge for what they meant to us) gestures that Olivia did everyday with us...I miss everything so much.

It also bothers me that, aside from the forum, Martina and my therapist, no one has really showed up and reached out with just pure support. They are all just waiting for me to reboot and for all to be well again, the idea of which I find kind of repulsive right now.

I think it'll be very painful to go to the rescue today, the memories of picking up Olivia 3 years ago (almost exactly, her gotcha day was just 2 weeks ago) will surely occupy most if not all the space in my heart and my mind. I am concerned I'll feel nothing for the new one/s, and though I've been in that exact situation before, most of us did, I find it so unfair to them. But at this stage maybe I have to accept that until the edge of the pain is a bit softer, I can really only be a passenger along for the ride.
I hope that at least, when it's time to leave for the rescue, it will be have gotten a bit more cloudy.

I'll make a point of continuing working on Olivia's photo album, and to write more about her in my rainbow piggies notebook. Maybe me and Marti will be able to sit together and write a tribute in the rainbow section, it'd be nice if we could. But really we can only take it as it comes right now.

I know this stage has not been easy with any of my recent rainbow piggies, Rudi, Matilde, Mia...I'll attach a picture of them below, they were so loved and are so missed...but this one is hitting me a lot harder. The bond and the connection with Olivia were just at a different level

Photo 1 and 2: Mia
Photo 3, 4 and 6: gorgeous Rudi
Photo 5 and 7: little Matilde

BIG HUGS

You are only just about at the start of where the loss is really starting to hit you and to sink in after the sheer shock and self-blaming phases are fading. It's still very early stages. Please give yourself time. Your grieving process is progressing perfectly normal for when the adrenaline is finally running out and you get the full blues hangover and the full reality of your loss is sinking in.

Of course you are sooo not ready for new piggies. But new piggies are not for you - they are for Ginny. You will come to love whoever comes home with you in due time and without you having to consciously work on it. If you feel resentful for them taking Olivia's space then that is also a very normal and actually healthy reaction, and not something you should be upset about or blaming yourself for. You've been there after Nocciola and you are here yet again. Please keep telling yourself that. But this time round you know that it is everntually going to get better without you losing Olivia entirely.

Accept your emotions, even the dark ones and give them their space so they can come out and don't fester. Don't try to put misplaced expectations on yourself right now. When your soul is in a dark place, good weather and other people in an upbeat mood can be soo irritating; that is also perfectly normal for where you are in your grieving process. It's just that we get trained to not to speak about and to suppress these feelings as we grow up. But we all still have them...

You just can't hurry on your grieving and there are no shortcuts. Accept where you are and make sure that you do not bottle up your feelings and rather try to give them some kind of physical and/or vocal let out, like writing a grieving diary, paint if you are so inclined, going for a brisk walk/run or dancing to music that suits your mood so you can work the darkness out of you. This stage and these emotions have their place and you need to acknowledge them.

If you feel anger, then by all means get physical in some way. I used to throw a tennis ball hard at a wall for however long it took when I was really, really angry before going on a brisk walk to trigger my feel-well endorphines. Energetic weeding or digging up borders etc. can also help in order to deal with the unfairness and your helplessness in the face of it all.

What you are experiencing are all legitimate feelings that you have to face and come to accept as the other side of your love. Love can only truly shine on a dark background - they are bound together. Your strong and complex sense of loss is the dark background that validates your love. The more you accept your own darkness, the easier you can then let it go. The more you fight it, the worse you have to grapple with it.

Grieving is not a nice thing but it is something very essential. The more you love, the more you have to grieve. You have the gift to love very, very deeply; but like every special gift, it comes with a steep price and with a flip side. It is your greatest strength but at the same time your greatest weakness. The two sides balance each other; only that you have stronger spikes each way in this area compared to many people.

I have the gift of being able to give comfort but I constantly have to balance myself and I have to always be very conscious of needing to protect myself. You have the gift of loving but it comes with the price of having to grieve more deeply and no, you won't ever be able to just 'get on with it' because you have to go through a deeper valley to balance out the soaring heights you can take your loves to.

But you can work through it and learn to bear the darkness to then be able to dismiss your strong emotions more easily and not let them take you over without having any control whatsoever. Accept your journey through the darkness with all it various stations, give your feelings room to come out, help them to come out and just keep on going forward stumbling step by stumbling step. You will eventually come out of it on the other side.

If you start seeing your journey as something that is an integral part of what makes you so special, then it is hopefully going to become a bit easier for you to accept and to deal with.

I am very sensitive as well - I need that in order to do what I do well, so I understand why you suffer so badly. Unfortunately, you cannot just have the good without having the bad, too. Your own strong sensitivity is paired with an exceptionally deep ability to love, but you have learn as part as your life lessons and your growth as a more rounded human that your gift has more sides than just one and that they have all their right and place. It is in your dark times that you dig deep with your roots and where create the foundation on which you can grow back stronger again and to truly soar.

Look after yourself first and foremost right now. The weather, other people's opinions of what is 'proper' and any new piggies can wait; they are not relevant for you at the moment until you are ready for them and until can open the windows and doors of your soul again without thick black smoke belching out...

I hope that this helps you? Thinking of you and Marti, and sending you my vibes to you both.

 

[exia]

I'm so so so sorry you and Martina had to go through this with Olivia. Its so devastating to see them suffer this way and not know how to make them feel better. I'm very impressed by the work both you and Martina did with Olivia, you really fought for her and I'm sure she went to the bridge knowning she was so loved by you.

"its just a little guinea pig" people say. Well, that little guinea pig is wonderful and they leave us with a paw print in our hearts.
Now sleep, eat, be a human. Cry. That schock you're in right now is so difficult. Lost my boy a year ago in a similar situation and I was a total wreck for a couple of days out of pure schock and tierdness.

Holding you, Martina and Olivia in my heart

 

[CTWC]

It is still early days for you and the emotions are high of course they will be.
Try to take a moment each day to mindfully feel the support you have from those who understand and ignore the thoughts about those who are not supporting you they are not important.

 

[Davide]

Thanks so much to all of you for still staying close to us, if only you could know how much difference you make with each message.

We took courage and did the trip to Coseley, Ginny is now home with the little boy we had reserved and a baby girl who happens to be the boy's daughter. They stayed in the pen around 30 min at the rescue and it all looks fine so far.

We didn't know this, but the boy was found dumped in a bin behind a Sainsburys in Wolverhampton over Christmas, together with a girl who turned out to be pregnant with 3 babies. They're all fine, boy and little girl are with us, the mom and the other 2 small ones are already reserved.

 

[Truffolo]

It is wonderful that you and lovely Ginny can help the little piggies. Their beginnings have been terrible. It's so great they are in your home. I really hope the bonding goes well