Lymphadenitis - Is Anyone Familiar With It?

[oxtinamona]

Hi,
I just brought my boy back from the vets after what I believed was an abscess removal op which went well.
Until the vet dropped a bomb stating that's what caused abscess is most likely lymphadenitis and that it's very hard to cure and that usually they don't recover from it and it's ' managed' rather than cured until their life quality detoriates.

Needles to say I'm in total shock. I went there happy after they rang me post op to say al went well. I wasn't prepared for it at all.

I never heard of this either and after frantically browsing internet i found few ' causes' of This bacterial infection. To name : dirty bedding, overgrown teeth, harsh foods ( not sure how to interpret this as rhey are fed well balanced diet ) , can also be carried by sneezing coughing pigs. We have 6 in total and some of them sneeze ocassianly like us I suppose. Does it mean They all have it?
It also said it can be passed of via genital contact. Well he obviously humps Penelope... could it be that she passed it to him? Before we adopted him he lived on his own his entire life, he was pretty much feral so no idea how he could contract it ? Or bedding is clean so that's not cause either...
I'm just devastated. He only just over 1 year old

 

[smokeysmummy]

I'm sorry to hear your news. I've not had a piggy with this problem, but one of my pussy cats - Salem had it and it was managed purely with Metacam and the swelling of her lymph glands in her neck/jaw area went down considerably within the space of only a few weeks. She did also have hyperthyroidism and was being treated for that also - I'm not sure if the two are related at all - but it was definitely was not a death sentence at all for her. We didn't get to the bottom of why, her diagnosis was done via a fine needle aspirated and the contents sent for analysis - as we thought the worst. Is your vet 'piggy savvy' at all?
Sorry I don't know if if that's helped or not, but I hope you could get a second opinion as I'm not sure that you have been painted a thorough enough picture by your current vet.
Hugs and good luck x

 

[3Tyger]

I've never heard of this before. What a shock for you, I'm really sorry you got this bad news!

I looked online as well as it sounds a worrying condition I came across this info (obviously all online info is best to confirm its accuracy with your vet)...

"Cervical lymphadenitis or “lumps” refers to a nonpainful abscessation of the cervical lymph nodes. It is best to attempt removal of the entire abscess intact to prevent recurrence. If this is not feasible, however, the abscess should be lanced, drained and fluid cultured to identify the specific bacterial agent responsible and allow treatment with the appropriate antibiotics. Transmission of the organism causing “lumps” is via abrasions in the oral mucosa. Recovered animals are always carriers. This information was taken from a FaceBook posting by Diana Haskins."

If this is accurate it looks to me like it might be spread from sores in the mouth, so maybe its worth asking your vet if other piggies could catch it from using the same water bottle as the piggie who has this infection?

And also check with your vet if by saying they 'can't cure' your piggie whether they just mean that he can actually get better himself but he'd remain a carrier of this infection to others?

 

[oxtinamona]

I've never heard of this before. What a shock for you, I'm really sorry you got this bad news!

I looked online as well as it sounds a worrying condition I came across this info (obviously all online info is best to confirm its accuracy with your vet)...

"Cervical lymphadenitis or “lumps” refers to a nonpainful abscessation of the cervical lymph nodes. It is best to attempt removal of the entire abscess intact to prevent recurrence. If this is not feasible, however, the abscess should be lanced, drained and fluid cultured to identify the specific bacterial agent responsible and allow treatment with the appropriate antibiotics. Transmission of the organism causing “lumps” is via abrasions in the oral mucosa. Recovered animals are always carriers. This information was taken from a FaceBook posting by Diana Haskins."

If this is accurate it looks to me like it might be spread from sores in the mouth, so maybe its worth asking your vet if other piggies could catch it from using the same water bottle as the piggie who has this infection?

And also check with your vet if by saying they 'can't cure' your piggie whether they just mean that he can actually get better himself but he'd remain a carrier of this infection to others?

Hey, that's a good idea. We are going for check up on Tuesday and I will have further conversation with her then. If he innfact can transmit it via same water bottle then this means he will need to live alone I hope this will not be the case.

From what she said it sounded like ... well the prognosis is not good and it's hard to treat and usually it's managed up to certain point.
I'll have to write all the questions down as I was in shock today so only asked a few. Main being whatever on earth is this lymphadenitis.

I also have been thinking a lot about abscess overall. So many people had piggies with abscess. It sounds like most of time vet doesn't actually say what caused/ why bacteria did and they prescribe Baytril as default.
Now, I'm not an expert on medical matters at all, but could it be that his lymphadenitis is actually more common and is just that not all vets actually confirm what bacteria caused abscess, as technically there are more bacterias that can cause abscess out there...?

I read vaguely on potential way of this bacteria getting to Presley's system and most of them I eliminated. Other than a
Cut or scratch wound caused by wuitelikey hay poke ... but then again this I'll never know.
I hoped he will be with us long time, but it doesn't sound like it my heart is breaking.

 

[Wiebke]

Guinea pig/small animal medical knowledge is still making huge strides. It is not that long that all rodents together were lumped into just one afternoon of lectures in a 4 year long vet course; in fact when I joined this forum, the big revolution was just about to start - and finding piggy savvy vets was not easy at all...

There are new insights and diagnoses coming up all the time. Not because the problems have not been around, often just because for the first time they are applied to guinea pigs. I don't think that you need to worry about neglect playing an issue with yours, but it could just mean that the bug has somehow made it into the system via the environment. It would be good if you spoke to your vet about the implications and please let us know - we would appreciate that so we can help better with future cases. It is a new one to me!

I am sorry that you have ended with such a nasty thing. Most abscesses we deal with are thankfully either dental root abscesses, neutering post-op ones or the result of a boar fight with bites.

 

[oxtinamona]

Guinea pig/small animal medical knowledge is still making huge strides. It is not that long that all rodents together were lumped into just one afternoon of lectures in a 4 year long vet course; in fact when I joined this forum, the big revolution was just about to start - and finding piggy savvy vets was not easy at all...

There are new insights and diagnoses coming up all the time. Not because the problems have not been around, often just because for the first time they are applied to guinea pigs. I don't think that you need to worry about neglect playing an issue with yours, but it could just mean that the bug has somehow made it into the system via the environment. It would be good if you spoke to your vet about the implications and please let us know - we would appreciate that so we can help better with future cases. It is a new one to me!

I am sorry that you have ended with such a nasty thing. Most abscesses we deal with are thankfully either dental root abscesses, neutering post-op ones or the result of a boar fight with bites.

Hi Wiebke,
Thank you for kind words and reassurance.
I do hope that she got it all out and he can live healthy happy and long life. Poor Penelope ( his girlfriend) doesn't know what's happening and why is their cage separted. I think you're right, that bacteria could have been anywhere, as they normally are. Could have entered via small cut caused by hay poke and could have even been on hay...
We will see what the vet will say on Tuesday during check up. We may seek second opinion. Apparently there are two more exotic vets here in Norwich so may be worth consultation with them. At present Presley seems to be recovering from the op ok. He's eating himself and pooping which are most important things. Only thing I'm worried about is that when they said initially it's just normal abscess ( well they said abscess I didn't know there are different ones to this degree) I asked for him to be prescribed Zithromax, because everyone recommended it for abscess so now I worry it's not strong enough for this particular bacterial abscess.

I will keep you posted regularly.

P.S. I met you in Doncaster last Sunday me and my boyfriend tired that lovely 600 year old cake x

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

As far as I'm aware this is treatable and not as worrying as your vet has lead you to believe.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi Wiebke,
Thank you for kind words and reassurance.
I do hope that she got it all out and he can live healthy happy and long life. Poor Penelope ( his girlfriend) doesn't know what's happening and why is their cage separted. I think you're right, that bacteria could have been anywhere, as they normally are. Could have entered via small cut caused by hay poke and could have even been on hay...
We will see what the vet will say on Tuesday during check up. We may seek second opinion. Apparently there are two more exotic vets here in Norwich so may be worth consultation with them. At present Presley seems to be recovering from the op ok. He's eating himself and pooping which are most important things. Only thing I'm worried about is that when they said initially it's just normal abscess ( well they said abscess I didn't know there are different ones to this degree) I asked for him to be prescribed Zithromax, because everyone recommended it for abscess so now I worry it's not strong enough for this particular bacterial abscess.

I will keep you posted regularly.

P.S. I met you in Doncaster last Sunday me and my boyfriend tired that lovely 600 year old cake x

Zithromax is about the strongest antibiotic you can give a guinea pig; it should only be prescribed in severe cases where other antibiotics won't do the trick. It is best used for any large abscesses that can only be lanced and drained to let them heal from the inside out because they are too close to the skin for removal.
If the abscess has been fully operated out, then the usual antibiotics apply; as that comes under normal post-op recovery.
Please be aware that antibiotics do not necessarily work on viruses. You have to speak about suitable medication with your vet. The stronger the antibiotic, the bigger the long term side effects, so it is always a toss up.

I hope that you did enjoy the biscuits! Next time stay and have a little chat with me!

 

[oxtinamona]

Zithromax is about the strongest antibiotic you can give a guinea pig; it should only be prescribed in severe cases where other antibiotics won't do the trick. It is best used for any large abscesses that can only be lanced and drained to let them heal from the inside out because they are too close to the skin for removal.
If the abscess has been fully operated out, then the usual antibiotics apply; as that comes under normal post-op recovery.
Please be aware that antibiotics do not necessarily work on viruses. You have to speak about suitable medication with your vet. The stronger the antibiotic, the bigger the long term side effects, so it is always a toss up.

I hope that you did enjoy the biscuits! Next time stay and have a little chat with me!

It is isn't it
Catch 22 literally. He is only getting Zithromax for 5 days. The abscess hasn't been removed, just drained and lanced... it's definitely still there and bigger.

I was flushing it with salted water as they recommended as saw a bit of puss come out. I was brace enough to squeeze it gently ( luckily didn't seem to bother Presley) to see if more puss would come out but it didn't.
Is there anything else I could flash the wound with to help it clear? Is there anything that can ' drag the puss out' ? I heard warm compresses are good, shall I just use salt warm water ? I've seen someone said something that's starts with 'hibi' is good to flush wounds.
I just feel like vets have he attitude of ' oh it's a guinea pig, they don't tend to recover well so we won't put extra effort to fight for it'

 

[oxtinamona]

As far as I'm aware this is treatable and not as worrying as your vet has lead you to believe.

So, what would you suggest? Is there anything specific I should ask the vet about ? They do have a slightly worrying attitude ( some of them in that surgery) which makes me feel that they just accept that pigs hardly ever survive things like this so it's not worth 100% effort
Can I do anything for him? Is there anything I can get him to speed to process ?
He just got second dose of antibiotic and we have enough for 5 days only. I'm not sure if that's long enough x

 

[Wiebke]

It is isn't it
Catch 22 literally. He is only getting Zithromax for 5 days. The abscess hasn't been removed, just drained and lanced... it's definitely still there and bigger.

I was flushing it with salted water as they recommended as saw a bit of puss come out. I was brace enough to squeeze it gently ( luckily didn't seem to bother Presley) to see if more puss would come out but it didn't.
Is there anything else I could flash the wound with to help it clear? Is there anything that can ' drag the puss out' ? I heard warm compresses are good, shall I just use salt warm water ? I've seen someone said something that's starts with 'hibi' is good to flush wounds.
I just feel like vets have he attitude of ' oh it's a guinea pig, they don't tend to recover well so we won't put extra effort to fight for it'

No, any mild antiseptic will do the trick. The pus is generated as the abscess heals - there is no big lump of it that you can draw out. You really need to keep flushing 2-3 times daily for as long as possible and if necessary peel any scab that forms off. The longer you can do that (ideally for 10-14 days), the better, as that ensures that no little fleck of infection gets stuck. It is no fun for you and it is not pleasant for the piggy, but it has to be done to get on top of it, once and for all. An abscess is OK to leave once you haven't found any pus under the scab that forms regularly towards the end for 1-2 days.
You will need the zithromax for at least 2 weeks or longer, depending on the severity and size of your abscess.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

5 days will not be enough. Is there any chance you could get your piggy to Northamptob to be seen by Simon Maddock at the Cat & Rabbit Care Clinic? Simon has extensive knowledge and e perience in dealing with cases like this and you can be sure your piggy will get the appropriate treatment. X

 

[helen105281]

I second the recommendation to get to Simon if you can. He is brilliant with abscesses.

 

[oxtinamona]

I second the recommendation to get to Simon if you can. He is brilliant with abscesses.

I'm not sure if over 2hrs long journey with I'll pig is a good option... especially that now our vet thinks that it is not necessarily abscess. We took him back there today as it was 3x more swollen than before so they tried to puncture the lump
To see if there is any puss. He was uncomfortable so they put him under local anaesthetic and sedation to reduce distress.
She then came back and asked if I am happy if they send a sample for further analysis (£63) as they now don't think is abscess as there was no puss
So now we have to wait 3-5 working days for results. If the lump keeps getting worse we will need to come back. I hope perhaps now antibiotics will start kicking in and something will change for better...
So tired of the 'unknown'

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

I've just been talking to Simon about this. He says that it would need to be marsupialised and then lanced and drained. Often the abscesses are very deep, which may be the reason the vet was unable to get any pus. Without good drainage you are fighting a losing battle. He says it should be straightforward to deal with and then a long course of Zithromax should sort the problem out.

 

[oxtinamona]

I've just been talking to Simon about this. He says that it would need to be marsupialised and then lanced and drained. Often the abscesses are very deep, which may be the reason the vet was unable to get any pus. Without good drainage you are fighting a losing battle. He says it should be straightforward to deal with and then a long course of Zithromax should sort the problem out.

Oh thank you for consulting him. That's very kind. Our vet kinda said that it may be another abscess set deeper. They want to ensure it is that tho, I can see where they're coming from, although of course I'm thinking every day is precious. I'm just hoping it won't get worse over the weekend

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Oh thank you for consulting him. That's very kind. Our vet kinda said that it may be another abscess set deeper. They want to ensure it is that tho, I can see where they're coming from, although of course I'm thinking every day is precious. I'm just hoping it won't get worse over the weekend

See how things go over the weekend. If you would like Simon to see your piggy, I can offer him a temporary place here at TEAS, to enable him to get treatment. X

 

[oxtinamona]

See how things go over the weekend. If you would like Simon to see your piggy, I can offer him a temporary place here at TEAS, to enable him to get treatment. X

That so kind thank you. I know it'll sound horrible, but we spend £250 so far and I think there will be more expenses coming so I'm not sure if we can travel as well on top of that as that's extra expense...I'm jus very confused as to what the best course of action is. It's hard x
How much do you charge for boarding x

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

That so kind thank you. I know it'll sound horrible, but we spend £250 so far and I think there will be more expenses coming so I'm not sure if we can travel as well on top of that as that's extra expense...I'm jus very confused as to what the best course of action is. It's hard x
How much do you charge for boarding x

No charge for boarding. You just pay the veterinary costs directly to the practice. Any ideas for fundraising are always very welcome :-)

 

[Lady Kelly]

That so kind thank you. I know it'll sound horrible, but we spend £250 so far and I think there will be more expenses coming so I'm not sure if we can travel as well on top of that as that's extra expense...I'm jus very confused as to what the best course of action is. It's hard x
How much do you charge for boarding x

Hi, I visited Simon for the first time last week. My vets isn't a specialist but very knowledgeable with guinea pigs so have never needed to travel but with fears over Jemima having teeth problems I decided to go straight to Simon. I was very impressed with his knowledge levels. @Stewybus runs a facebook group called the Piggy train and part of the idea of the piggy train is to help sick pigs get specialist veterinary treatment so if you did want to take up furryfriends offer of a place at TEAS so that he could get the best treatment possible then you could try the piggy train to see if some volunteers can help transport him up there.

 

[oxtinamona]

Hi, I visited Simon for the first time last week. My vets isn't a specialist but very knowledgeable with guinea pigs so have never needed to travel but with fears over Jemima having teeth problems I decided to go straight to Simon. I was very impressed with his knowledge levels. @Stewybus runs a facebook group called the Piggy train and part of the idea of the piggy train is to help sick pigs get specialist veterinary treatment so if you did want to take up furryfriends offer of a place at TEAS so that he could get the best treatment possible then you could try the piggy train to see if some volunteers can help transport him up there.

Hi thank you all for help and suggestions. Presley suddenly perked up and is eating loads of hay quite quickly when earlier he was slow... perhaps his anaesthetic wears off now so he is a bit brighter.
I may take up on the offer to see simon and board Presley at TEAS. I'm not sure if I could leave Presley with someone else to drive him all the way up there I'm neurotic I guess...
But all in all, I would as of course I want best for him.
I can only hope that nothing bad will happen over the weekend. The charges for weekend vet are absolutely insane and whilst we do have a vet fund it's definitely not in thousands ...
It typical because our two origI am girls are insured and their policy expired end of this month. We were then looking into getting a quote for joint/group insurance and then this happened literally just before we enquired about the insurance
Never mind, such is life.
I think our vet isn't doing a bad thing, I think it's good they're checking what it is ... but again, I will talk to them on Tuesday when our check up app is booked for and we will see their thoughts. One thing I pray for is for Presley not to get worse.
If he will then we will strongly consider visiting Simon.

Thank you all for advice and support. You never fail and this is literally the most supportive community I've ever come across .
It's fantastic that this forum exist x
I'll keep y'all posted.

 

[Lady Kelly]

If you have faith in your vets and feel they are capable then you could always suggest that they seek treatment ideas from Simon, if they are interested and competent but just lacking the knowledge then that could help Presley as well as expand on your vets practices. I will keep everything crossed that he continues to do well

 

[3Tyger]

Best of luck with Presley this weekend, really hope he perks up and things improve soon

 

[3Tyger]

Just reading through the other comments about this and been thinking;

could it be that his lymphadenitis is actually more common and is just that not all vets actually confirm what bacteria caused abscess, as technically there are more bacterias that can cause abscess out there...?

You could be right, and LOTS of guinea pigs could be carriers of this and we just don't know it. I feel like if there's this infection risk out there that could seriously affect our piggies well-being then someone should be doing some kind of awareness campaign and doing a bit of research to find out more. Surely by now they can see there's a strong market for small pets? In the past couple of years my piggies have cost me about treble more than what I spent on my cat.

Guinea pig/small animal medical knowledge is still making huge strides. It is not that long that all rodents together were lumped into just one afternoon of lectures in a 4 year long vet course; in fact when I joined this forum, the big revolution was just about to start - and finding piggy savvy vets was not easy at all...

There are new insights and diagnoses coming up all the time. Not because the problems have not been around, often just because for the first time they are applied to guinea pigs. I don't think that you need to worry about neglect playing an issue with yours, but it could just mean that the bug has somehow made it into the system via the environment. It would be good if you spoke to your vet about the implications and please let us know - we would appreciate that so we can help better with future cases. It is a new one to me!

I am sorry that you have ended with such a nasty thing. Most abscesses we deal with are thankfully either dental root abscesses, neutering post-op ones or the result of a boar fight with bites.

It's so annoying and sad that rodents get 3rd class priority by vets so often when I love my piggies as much as my cat. Would you know if there is any way i can tell if a vet has had further training in working with rodents after they qualified though, like do they get different letters after their name, or is it listed on another register anywhere?

As far as I'm aware this is treatable and not as worrying as your vet has lead you to believe

I really hope that you're right

Awww... Best of luck for Presley and i hope it does turn out to have been a bit exaggerated and that he can make a full & speedy recovery

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

If the abscess can't be removed in its entirety then it should be marsupialised. Most abscesses are deep and you need to cut through many layers before you reach the capsule. This then needs to be stitched to the skins surface before the capsule is opened. It should be stitched open so it can be flushed regularly.

Keep me posted and if you want a chat on the phone just let me know xx

 

[oxtinamona]

If you have faith in your vets and feel they are capable then you could always suggest that they seek treatment ideas from Simon, if they are interested and competent but just lacking the knowledge then that could help Presley as well as expand on your vets practices. I will keep everything crossed that he continues to do well

That's precisely what I was planning on doing x I'm not sure what and who I have faith in as it's been a long and sleepless night and I don't know whether what I'm doing is right or not

I'm now worried as I've been syringe feeding Presley whole night every 2 hrs ( last time @approx 7:40am) and I haven't seen any poops. He was pooping yesterday and day before so I'm not sure what's happening. He did show interest in food when I brought it in making usual pre-feed noise and all piggies started wheeking and he came out from his hidey too. He had a tiny nibble only. He ate slice of cucumber, 2 -3 bites of pepper, maybe one leaf of celery which he normally loves... he is munching on hay by himself which I think is good but I don't know if it's enough. He's not eating his favourite expensive American hay and I'm wondering if it's because it's too coarse for him perhaps ?

Is there anything I can do to help him poop? When I should I start really worry? The post op guide from vets stars that if no poops within 24hrs then it's a worrying sign. But his op was on Thursday and he was pooping. Could he have stopped because he had local anaesthetic and sedation yesterday for sample taking?
Poor thing has been through so much in last 4 days

 

[oxtinamona]

If the abscess can't be removed in its entirety then it should be marsupialised. Most abscesses are deep and you need to cut through many layers before you reach the capsule. This then needs to be stitched to the skins surface before the capsule is opened. It should be stitched open so it can be flushed regularly.

Keep me posted and if you want a chat on the phone just let me know xx

Thank you so much x

 

[Lady Kelly]

That's precisely what I was planning on doing x I'm not sure what and who I have faith in as it's been a long and sleepless night and I don't know whether what I'm doing is right or not

I'm now worried as I've been syringe feeding Presley whole night every 2 hrs ( last time @approx 7:40am) and I haven't seen any poops. He was pooping yesterday and day before so I'm not sure what's happening. He did show interest in food when I brought it in making usual pre-feed noise and all piggies started wheeking and he came out from his hidey too. He had a tiny nibble only. He ate slice of cucumber, 2 -3 bites of pepper, maybe one leaf of celery which he normally loves... he is munching on hay by himself which I think is good but I don't know if it's enough. He's not eating his favourite expensive American hay and I'm wondering if it's because it's too coarse for him perhaps ?

Is there anything I can do to help him poop? When I should I start really worry? The post op guide from vets stars that if no poops within 24hrs then it's a worrying sign. But his op was on Thursday and he was pooping. Could he have stopped because he had local anaesthetic and sedation yesterday for sample taking?
Poor thing has been through so much in last 4 days

What a worrying time for you. I think it's natural to keep second guessing decisions but there is no way to predict which option is best.

I'm tagging @Wiebke and @furryfriends(TEAS) again due to the latest development as I haven't had a pig with an abscess so not sure on what to watch for post op

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

So no poos at all? Is he still bright and lively? You really need to get some gut motility drugs from your vet asap. Ask for Zantac and Emeprid. How much syringe food are you getting in to him? Is he fully reliant on syringe food or is he eating for himself too?

 

[oxtinamona]

Well he goes through stages.
He got it of his hidey when he heard food, he rumble strutted Penelope through the bar and newest development is that he is obsessively eating grass! We have some growing on our windowsills and I have to him as I know car and dogs eat it to regulate their tummy functions. So he's loving it. He is eating hay by himself, just not too keen on fresh food. He did try. Maybe it's because I filled him up with syringe ? I have him approx 12-15 ml this morning. I increased it as he was eating a bit more before.