Ophelia

My Tofu barely fits inside the biggest carrot cottage too! Hope Ophelia is recovered! I’m pleased the bonding went well, it sounds all typical dominance to my limited knowledge 😊 I hope you are taking some time to relax where you can as well
 
Well, Betsy is a very happy piggy. At clean-out time she does circuits of the run, chuntering and popcorning. She is beginning to know when it is food time and comes out wheeking.

HOWEVER. I am increasingly concerned about her over-dominance towards Ophelia. If Ophelia wants to go past a hidey in which Betsie is sitting, she will do a quick scuttle at that point, before slowing down again. She is being chucked out of wherever she is. This morning, Betsie was having her breakfast from within the carrot cottage and I had placed the bowl at an entrance pointing in a different direction from Ophelia, who was eating in the open. When Ophelia went past a different entrance of that carrot cottage, to come for some more pepper from me, Betsie nipped her. Later, she took the pepper from Ophelia's mouth, whereupon Ophelia ran away. At another point this morning, they came nose-to-nose and Ophelia immediately ran away.

We go away in a couple of weeks and they will be in a Ferplast 160 for a week. That means there is less scope for Ophelia to escape Betsie. (Their run here is about 6 x 3 foot.) I will ask my friend to keep a close eye on the behaviour and give her the grid to put down between them if it comes to that.

I am very worried for Ophelia. She was supremely happy and relaxed when the grid was between them, but to have them living side-by-side is not going to work for us. I would be grateful for any input, please. Ophelia is a gentle little piggy and I don't want her to have a life where she is skittish and running away from her companion.

I am wondering whether we keep watching for the next two weeks and if the behaviour continues/worsens, we rehome Betsie before we go away, and start again with Ophelia when we get back. It would be awful for Betsie, and therefore for us, but it is upsetting to see this behaviour towards Ophelia.
 
I would keep a close eye on her general happiness as well as her weight to check she isn’t being chased away from food.
Sows can be a bit more subtle about bullying so it can be a bit harder to spot.

Have you tried scatter feeding instead of using bowls to see if that helps?
 
Piggies&buns said:
I would keep a close eye on her general happiness as well as her weight to check she isn’t being chased away from food.
Sows can be a bit more subtle about bullying so it can be a bit harder to spot.

Have you tried scatter feeding instead of using bowls to see if that helps?
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Thank you very much for your reply. I am worried about her weight and am trying to find where I put the precise scales. Using not-so-accurate scales, it is around what it usually is, so maybe it's the contrast with the much bigger Betsie. Ophelia has always been very slight. We do stay there whilst they eat --but, of course, I don't know about the hay consumption. We'll start weighing her daily/every other day.

The behaviour of sows sounds to be like that of human girls, if sows are also more subtle in their bullying. Again, I watched Betsie tip her out of the carrot cottage and, at a different time, suddenly lurch her head towards Ophelia as she was near, as though to nip her.

We are trying to work out Ophelia's general happiness, to assess whether she would be relieved were Betsie not there or upset for her to go. With my guinea-pig experience limited to the interactions between Bianca and Ophelia, I don't know if this is an acceptable situation for a less dominant piggy. I certainly don't like it.

We haven't tried scatter-feeding with their vegetables, but could give it a go.
 
KHBz said:
HOWEVER. I am increasingly concerned about her over-dominance towards Ophelia. If Ophelia wants to go past a hidey in which Betsie is sitting, she will do a quick scuttle at that point, before slowing down again. She is being chucked out of wherever she is. This morning, Betsie was having her breakfast from within the carrot cottage and I had placed the bowl at an entrance pointing in a different direction from Ophelia, who was eating in the open. When Ophelia went past a different entrance of that carrot cottage, to come for some more pepper from me, Betsie nipped her. Later, she took the pepper from Ophelia's mouth, whereupon Ophelia ran away. At another point this morning, they came nose-to-nose and Ophelia immediately ran away.
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I would definitely try feeding without bowls, scatter-feeding as @Piggies&buns suggests. But reading the quoted para, I do feel concerned, especially Ophelia being chucked out of whereever she is.

KHBz said:
We go away in a couple of weeks and they will be in a Ferplast 160 for a week.
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I would be concerned about that, with their current behaviour.
But do try scatter-feeding right away! I think you can only make a final decision after you've tried that and observed their behaviour.
 
Thinking of you and Ophelia and Betsie. The first two weeks of bond establishing can be rough but you don’t want it to cross into bullying. I agree with the above suggestions, try scatter feeding and see what happens after two weeks

You’ve done so well giving these girls a chance and letting them decide if they like each other
 
We are taking Ophelia to the vets today because she has lost an alarming amount of weight. While Bianca was alive she was always in the 900s but now she is 773g.
We did take her to the vet when Bianca was alive because anyone would have thought that she was the ill one, hiding away, but we had her thoroughly checked.
@KHBz thinks she’s not eating enough hay. We don’t know how much Betsie has to do with this but we don’t think she will be able to stay…

Should we take Betsie with us? We don’t think it would be helpful for Ophelia, who is chased out of every hidey she goes into.
 
I’m sorry to hear that.
So you’re seeing bullying behaviours? Going beyond dominance?

Of course you have to rule illness out first but it isn’t sounding good and that bullying may be behind her weight loss
If so then I would not take Betsie
 
When Betsie lunges at Opelia, she immediately runs away. There isn't any submissive squeaking. I watched Betsie chase Ophelia out of hidey after hidey after hidey yesterday, in quick succession. As piggyinthemiddle says, I don't think Ophelia is eating enough hay. She was eating hay in the first hidey she was chased out of yesterday, but then didn't resume and so I have been piling hay in front of her when she is in the new fabric hideys. There are 3 carrot cottages now: one large, two medium, where there is hay, but Ophelia doesn't get to stay in them for long. The poor little thing. She always runs out to see me and I always give her some treat or other now (also making it fair for Betsie.)
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m sorry to hear that.
So you’re seeing bullying behaviours? Going beyond dominance?

Of course you have to rule illness out first but it isn’t sounding good and that bullying may be behind her weight loss
If so then I would not take Betsie
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Do you think, from what I wrote before your message came through for me, that that is more bullying behaviour? She lurches at her and Ophelia runs. Even if it isn't bullying, it is not adding to Ophelia's quality of life.
 
The actual weight was 820g so our scales were imprecise but that is still an 80g loss. The vet couldn’t feel anything, apart from the fact that she was too thin. The vet couldn’t see her back teeth (she was enjoying chewing on the probe) but our priority now is getting her weight up. If this doesn’t happen, they would have to sedate her to check everything thoroughly.

Mini-slave doesn’t want to give up on Betsie just yet so we put her back in to observe their behaviour. Ophelia went into a hidey and Betsie came up and we think they were nose-to-nose sniffing each other. Then Ophelia turned around and curled up and Betsie sat behind her in the tunnel for a while, before taking it over again. We will reconfigure it so that there are two huge piles of a hay and a hidey at each end of their enclosure, because Ophelia has to start eating again.
 
It must be stressful trying to determine what’s the right thing to do. If Ophelia is suffering from bullying I think you would be right to separate them, as hard as it would be on you

I’m sorry it hasn’t been going as planned. You have given them the best chance ❤️ hope Ophelia starts putting some weight back on
 
This is to be a final, closely watched, last -ditch attempt to see if they can be together, and we’re doing so (as my younger wanted) because of the gentleness of their mutual greeting when we put Ophelia back in. We have rearranged the run so that each end mirrors the other: huge pile of hay, fabric hide, carrot cottage, cuddle cup, water… . Bottom line: Ophelia has to eat more hay, so things have to turn around quickly.

I had intended to separate immediately and so we need to be there observing.
 
An hour apart from one another hadn't broken the bond, it would seem.
To be on the safe side, we should separate. But their behaviour upon re-introduction was surprising to us.
This isn't easy!
 
It doesn't sound easy at all. Is there space for 2 set ups next to each other so they can still socialise through the bars? I have a feeling that you don't have the space for this.

Would you consider getting a neutered boar instead of Betsie. It is so hard to give an animal back once they have come into your heart. I really hope you find a lovely solution.
 
flowerfairy said:
It doesn't sound easy at all. Is there space for 2 set ups next to each other so they can still socialise through the bars? I have a feeling that you don't have the space for this.

Would you consider getting a neutered boar instead of Betsie. It is so hard to give an animal back once they have come into your heart. I really hope you find a lovely solution.
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It would just make it so difficult if they were separate (especially when we have to leave them with a friend.) They’d also only have 3x3 foot each at home and less when away.

I actually rang the rescue before we tried bonding last Saturday, to warn them that we might have to bring Betsie back and therefore to ask if they have any neutered boars. I can’t cope with another sow bonding (@Merab) ! The boars that have come in haven’t yet been neutered.

We’ve been watching their interaction closely tonight and what we have seen is more encouraging. Ophelia went to where Betsie was eating readigrass, scuttled quickly past her, but then, from the safety of a carrot cottage, ate alongside her. (She had previously been eating her own pile of readigrass at the other end.) This lasted ages and didn’t end in tears. We kept praising Betsie throughout(!) Betsie has been much more respectful of where Ophelia is, bar one occasion, so I think the new, mirroring layout is working better - 2 distinct and similar zones which they have been crossing over into, so that they are both there, or just switching. Ophelia has been eating hay. I wonder how long this will last before Betsie forgets that Ophelia can be, and was, spirited away.

I can see now that guinea pigs really are quite complex creatures. Instructive though the whole experience is proving to be, it is not one I want to repeat! I’d like a happy ending.
 
Sorry - didn’t mean to post this twice! I can’t delete the second.
 
I'm sorry, but here I am again. It was looking so hopeful last night, and again when we came back from a day trip today. Betsie was sitting in a hidey, Ophelia in a cuddle cup just next to it. When Ophelia stepped out to drink some water from the bowl, however, Betsie chuntered, shot her head out and nipped her. This is the second time that I have thought it looked like she bit her. Is this likely? Why would a guinea-pig do so, unprovoked? (Perhaps Betsie hasn't come from 'a loving home'?)

I don't want to have to give up on Betsie either. We are giving this a try because of my younger daughter and because of the really positive reunion yesterday. However, Ophelia is too thin. I remember that she had put on weight with Bianca's special feed-on-demand-treat regime when we thought Bianca was going to die any day! And she looked so much better for it -- still slim but not overly slender.

A grill has to go between them now, doesn't it? Ophelia has to eat.
 
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