Ophelia

KHBz said:
Sorry - didn’t mean to post this twice! I can’t delete the second.
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Second post deleted for you.

When Jemimah and Priscilla were bonding there were nips as well as fur pulling.
They were sorting out their place in the herd. Merab was top and baby Phoebe was bottom - they were the the middle 2.

It took a couple of weeks before they decided to be friends.

It’s a tough call to know at what point you stop with Ophelia and Betsie.
You clearly want the best for both of them but sows can be difficult if they decide they don’t want to get on.

Hugs 🤗
 
Merab said:
Second post deleted for you.

When Jemimah and Priscilla were bonding there were nips as well as fur pulling.
They were sorting out their place in the herd. Merab was top and baby Phoebe was bottom - they were the the middle 2.

It took a couple of weeks before they decided to be friends.

It’s a tough call to know at what point you stop with Ophelia and Betsie.
You clearly want the best for both of them but sows can be difficult if they decide they don’t want to get on.

Hugs 🤗
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Thank you, Merab, that is really helpful to know.

Everyone’s input is so, so invaluable but how I wish someone experienced could see first-hand and tell us! @Piggies&buns has told us (thank you), and that’s my impulse for Ophelia’s sake, but then there are hopeful ‘but..’ moments and I think I may have over-stated the case against Betsie. Because it all looked good yesterday afternoon and earlier, we thought that it is maybe Betsie needing time to settle down. @PiggyintheMiddle and I keep being ready to throw in the towel. They have been together 11 days. I go around in circles, tugged back into indecision by my younger daughter’s hope and empathy for Betsie.
 
If I didn’t live so far away I’d offer to come and observe with you.

In the end you make the decision that you, as a family, feel is the right one.
Is your daughter old enough to be included in a conversation?
You could make a decision then live with it for a day or 2 and see if it feels comfortable.
If it does it’s probably the right decision.
 
Merab said:
If I didn’t live so far away I’d offer to come and observe with you.

In the end you make the decision that you, as a family, feel is the right one.
Is your daughter old enough to be included in a conversation?
You could make a decision then live with it for a day or 2 and see if it feels comfortable.
If it does it’s probably the right decision.
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You are lovely! Thank you for entertaining the notion if you were nearer!

Yes, my younger has equal input. She is sixteen, about to start sixth-form, and, if anything, plays the largest part in caring for them as the daily clean-out is really her responsibility. They moved permanently into her bedroom with Bianca's illness so that she could observe her closely. My daughter is staying in her room with them during the day (and night!) so as to continue to monitor the dynamics.

If we do put the grid down now, to see if Ophelia is happier and puts on weight, have we permanently broken the bond? That would solve it for me. Ophelia could have her old hutch back. These past weeks, since Bianca's death, must have been stressful for her.
 
I have never had sows so can't advise, just offering support. I do think if you trialled separation by putting in a grid and Ophelia was obviously happier and eating, that would mean they will be happier apart from each other. They might just not get along. I appreciate it is very difficult for you and your family though

I agree with @Merab about living with a decision for a while to see if it feels right. It's a hard situation to be in
 
What a great video. Really good point about the dominant behaviour as opposed to full on fights. Sounds like a change of layout has helped a lot with making them both feel secure and not too crowded.
 
Shimmer and Saffron came from a home where they lived together but had a good few rumbles and chases for the first few weeks that I had them. They still do rumble at each other and generally chose separate areas of the cage to lie in.
I really really hope that they sort out their hierarchy and that Ophelia puts on weight again.
 
It’s like watching a film - tense, then entertaining, then tense again and more entertaining.

We just watched Betsie attempt to get through the smallest entry to a tunnel, tugging and pulling at the fabric until she eventually had to give up. Ophelia slips in and out easily. There is quite a size difference! No, Betsie, we aren’t laughing at you.
 
Hmmm, do you think there is enough hay? Meadow hay, timothy hay, readigrass, as well as nettle/dandelion piles and a nugget trail ... No wonder Betsie popcorns at clean-out/pile-in time! We are weighing Ophelia every couple of days. By the digital kitchen scales (coming out at 55g less than it should be), she started at 773g, went to 790 two days ago and 785 this evening. She is eating hay -- she can't really miss it, wherever she ends up! (A sheet is drawn over each end -- both pulled away for the purposes of the photo.)

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The decision has been that Betsie is staying. She chases Ophelia out of hideys, but not relentlessly (five times a day?), and there are no stand-offs or teeth-chattering. I had not wanted a dominant sow for Ophelia but perhaps she is destined never to be the dominant one. She and Bianca were well matched but Bianca had the slight edge. Crunch point will be when Betsie and Ophelia have to share the Ferplast 160 for a week but there is nothing we can do about that. I'd looked to see if I can buy an extension but ours already has the extension.

I had been prepared, from what I have read here over the years and more recently, for the bonding not to be easy, with the possibility of it failing. This has been worse than anticipated, and it is still keeping us on edge.

In my eyes, I don't think any piggy will be good enough for gentle Ophelia. (As a mother might say in relation to her daughter and a prospective son-in-law!)
 
What made it so lovely is that our piggies are only handled when necessary (for weighing, nail trims, trips to the vet) so for her to bury against me as she did showed that I was a safe space for her in the alien environment. Very occasionally Ophelia will let you stroke her by her right eye and ear a little, and close her eye, -- but you have to choose your moment carefully and then she usually shakes herself immediately afterwards, as though to be rid of the human touch!
 
There was an interesting development yesterday. Inching forward very carefully, pausing, then moving closer again and pausing, Ophelia nabbed Betsie's pepper from her bowl, from right under her nose, and scuttled away! Betsie retreated into the hidey, very vocal. Then Ophelia went forwards again, this time more boldly... and settled down at Betsie's bowl to eat the other piece of pepper and nuggets right in front of her! Betsie stayed hidden in the hidey.

It wasn't long before Betsie got her own back. When Ophelia had gone off to another hidey, Betsie immediately chased her out. I have a question about subsequent behaviour, though. Betsie lunged at Ophelia when she was eating courgette and took it from her. Ophelia's favourite food is courgette. Betsie won't touch it -- except, it would seem, when Ophelia wants it! Ophelia's reaction was to freeze and turn her head away. She stayed like that, not moving, head averted, for a long time. This reaction of Ophelia's happened again a little later. Is that fear or submission?
 
Aw it’s lovely how Ophelia snuggled up to you! Tofu is similar, he’s not a fan of extended pets or cuddles but if he’s ever stressed or spooked he leans into me. It’s a very special bond ❤️

I often see Eddie (my younger boy who is submissive to Tofu atm) freeze and keep his head turned away from Tofu after a show of dominance. Caveat that I’m not an expert and have never had sows, but I think you’re describing normal dominance. As long as Ophelia is getting some rest and eating enough to keep her weight healthy, it shouldn’t be bullying from Betsie

My boys do lots of chasing, teeth chattering, stealing food from each other and sometimes Ed will freeze, keep his distance from Tofu etc. Other times he sidles up for a side-by-side nap. As long as the tension doesn’t escalate I deem them fine and fond of each other - and they will often steal food from each other that they don’t like, simply because they want what their friend has! I use it to trick Tofu into having his syringe feed haha
 
Stealing food is normal piggy behaviour, as is the ‘ I want what you’ve got ‘ attitude.
It sounds as if they’re not seriously falling out but still working things out.
I’m no expert either
 
Ophelia’s weight has been hovering around 784g for a week. Tonight it has been two days since the last weight check and it has gone to 768g. The vet had said that, to find out if there is anything physical, she would need to be sedated so they could look at her back teeth and also give her an ultrasound. The problem is we’re going away and the piggies are going to our friend tomorrow. Ordinarily we would take her to the vet but it’s complicated. Is 16g significant enough to take her tomorrow and delay everything?

Bear in mind, she is 6 now.
 
I’m so sorry. I’ve been in a similar situation in that I had a piggy need emergency bladder stone surgery the day before our holiday. I was so stressed.

How confident is your friend with piggies? Will they be able to syringe feed her while you are away? How long are you away for?

If they can syringe feed her and weigh her every day and take to the vets if needed then that could work out.

So at the moment she’s not on any medication and nothing has been found is that right? Other than weight loss?
 
weepweeps said:
I’m so sorry. I’ve been in a similar situation in that I had a piggy need emergency bladder stone surgery the day before our holiday. I was so stressed.

How confident is your friend with piggies? Will they be able to syringe feed her while you are away? How long are you away for?

If they can syringe feed her and weigh her every day and take to the vets if needed then that could work out.

So at the moment she’s not on any medication and nothing has been found is that right? Other than weight loss?
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Thank you for your quick reply. Nothing has been found without sedation. Our friend would be competent to syringe feed, however she won’t have easy access to a vet. We’re away for a week.

We see her eating hay and she gobbles up vegetables and eats pellets. Could this weight loss perhaps be due to stress?
 
May be stress. It’s great your friend can feed her. I’d get her to keep feeding her until you get back and have an appointment made as soon as you can. Obviously she will need to get her to a vet if needed. Try and have a lovely break away. ❤️
 
weepweeps said:
May be stress. It’s great your friend can feed her. I’d get her to keep feeding her until you get back and have an appointment made as soon as you can. Obviously she will need to get her to a vet if needed. Try and have a lovely break away. ❤️
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What would she feed her?
 
Non-emergency vet visits, contagion and illness care support

The above linked guide has several relevant titles for you (weight loss, syringe feeding etc.) sorry I can't link the ones that would be of most help for some reason the site won't let me. I suddenly don't have enough privileges to use that facility!

16g is less than a wee or a poop and is nothing to worry about unless it's a continuous downward trend, when you would need to weigh daily before stepping in with a vet visit and syringe feeding. 50g in 24 hrs is when you would normally start to think something may be wrong.

I hope you can manage to go away and enjoy your holiday.
 
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