Ophelia

[Merab]

Such exciting news.
Hoping Betsie and Ophelia like each other and bond easily

 

[weepweeps]

How exciting. Hoping the bonding goes smoothly. Good luck.

 

[KHBz]

We will be going in an hour to collect Betsie. I just have a preliminary question. In one of the guides, it says that it is important to give them time to settle in and not to try to bond older sows straight away. We will be using the Ferplast cage as the bonding space.

However, is it the case that if Betsie goes in there first, it will then smell of her, and, presumably be her space by the time we introduce Ophelia?

Also, what type of time period are we looking at before we can introduce Ophelia? I realise the answer will depend on the piggy, but I have no experience in this situation! Are we likely looking at half-an-hour, an hour, hours...?

Thank you

 

[weepweeps]

I’ve always bonded as soon as I’ve brought the second piggy home. I always leave them in the bonding pen all that day and overnight too.

You should know quickly if they don’t want to be together. Just put a large pile of hay and sprinkle some veggies around. Good luck. I hope they play nicely.

 

[KHBz]

I’ve always bonded as soon as I’ve brought the second piggy home. I always leave them in the bonding pen all that day and overnight too.

You should know quickly if they don’t want to be together. Just put a large pile of hay and sprinkle some veggies around. Good luck. I hope they play nicely.

Thank you! That’s really helpful. We will keep you updated!

 

[KHBz]

This is not going well. After an hour, we have now put a separating grid down the middle of the cage. For a long time, Ophelia was very nervous and cautious. Betsie was initially curious at her surroundings but then lay down in the middle, where we had put vegetables and food, and seemed calm. Earlier, Betsie had washed in front of Ophelia and later, Ophelia was washing. However, when the two finally came nearer each other, Betsie was teeth-chattering, vocalising and lifting her own chin up. Ophelia retreated to a hidey but Betsie charged in after her (Betsie is very big, whilst Ophelia is slight), at which point, with both of them crammed into the small space, I tipped them out. The photo attached shows the current situation. Betsy in one corner under a pile of hay; Ophelia *under the fleeces* under the pile of hay.

I rang the Blue Cross and they said to separate them and try again tomorrow. We have NOT done that, instead putting the grid between them. The Blue Cross said they need to get used to each other's scent and that was certainly what Betsie was doing. They also said to take away hideys, but we have just now given them both one of the snuggle-bags that were in there from the beginning, both now having each other's scent on it. (We couldn't leave Ophelia hiding under the floor fleeces.)

We are worried for Ophelia in this situation. She is timid. What do we do? Does this situation have any hope? It certainly doesn't look like it from Ophelia's point of view.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

Isn't there a whole write-up here somewhere on the forum about how to bond, step-by-step?

Hideys at the beginning are a no-no, a couple of piles of hay are OK, under which they can hide. "At the beginning" meaning until it's clear that they are going to accept each other and then they go into the approx. 2 weeks of sorting out hierarchy. Now that they're separated by the grid they can of course have a hidey or snuggle-sack each.

I've nearly always done the initial bonding outside a cage, in a guinea-proofed room / part of a room, except at the beginning of my guinea career when I didn't have much idea of things. So far in Germany I haven't heard about guineas needing to get used to each other's scent before bonding, so I have done successful bonding without that. I do understand that it's best practice in the UK, so do do it of course! But I'm not sure based on my own experience that it is the answer here.

 

[KHBz]

Just some photos of the less intense stand-off. Betsie (right) is vocalising and teeth chattering. Is she scared? Trying to be dominant? When we initially put the grid down between them, Betsie lay alongside it, which I understand is territorial. Oh dear.

 

[KHBz]

Isn't there a whole write-up here somewhere on the forum about how to bond, step-by-step?

Hideys at the beginning are a no-no, a couple of piles of hay are OK, under which they can hide. "At the beginning" meaning until it's clear that they are going to accept each other and then they go into the approx. 2 weeks of sorting out hierarchy. Now that they're separated by the grid they can of course have a hidey or snuggle-sack each.

I've nearly always done the initial bonding outside a cage, in a guinea-proofed room / part of a room, except at the beginning of my guinea career when I didn't have much idea of things. So far in Germany I haven't heard about guineas needing to get used to each other's scent before bonding, so I have done successful bonding without that. I do understand that it's best practice in the UK, so do do it of course! But I'm not sure based on my own experience that it is the answer here.

Yes, there is a write-up. We'd looked through them but I forgot about no hideys, having carried Ophelia downstairs to the cage in her snuggle-bag. The cage isn't Ophelia's home. She has only stayed in it once, last year, when we left them with a friend when we were away from a week.

 

[weepweeps]

I’ve never done the scent swapping either.

Definitely the hides were a problem. Can you rebond tomorrow in a larger room/enclosure? I’ve used a bathroom before and also an outdoor run in the living room.

I’m not sure what the guides say about rebonding. I’ve not had to try again. And also girls can be trickier to bond I’ve heard.

 

[KHBz]

I’ve never done the scent swapping either.

Definitely the hides were a problem. Can you rebond tomorrow in a larger room/enclosure? I’ve used a bathroom before and also an outdoor run in the living room.

I’m not sure what the guides say about rebonding. I’ve not had to try again. And also girls can be trickier to bond I’ve heard.

How stupid I was (brain fog). We could use our very large outdoor run inside. Should we totally separate them- Betsie in the cage, Ophelia back upstairs, or leave them with a grid? I’m worried about separating them totally as, for them, it means starting all over again - rebonding, as you say? But that may be preferable and we put them in a much much bigger set-up tomorrow?

 

[JaseChase]

I believe that giving them a few days together side-by-side with interaction through the bars can help them get used to each other before bonding. I have only bonded guinea pigs once though so I’m not an expert at all. I was advised against scent swapping - only scents with both of them go into the shared cage if the bonding is successful

Echoing others, maybe trying again tomorrow or in a few days in a neutral room/pen with no hideys and just a pile of hay to see how they go? If you can leave them side-by-side up until then? I used spare C&C grids to make up a bonding pen but I know others have used bath tubs or cornered off bits of rooms as well

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

@KHBz @PiggyintheMiddle
In your shoes, I'd certainly re-read all the information on bonding, all those write-ups by Wiebke and whoever else. There is a lot of information, a lot to read and absorb. I think that might answer your questions or some of them at least and make you feel a bit more confident going into a new bonding try-out.

This is a quote from one of Wiebke's write-ups: (BBM)
"Five minute tester meetings and play dates also don’t work – for guinea pigs every meeting is a proper introduction, and every separation is a prematurely aborted bonding, which is very upsetting and frustrating for them! If you stop any bonding at the first sign of dominance behaviour, your guinea pigs simply will never have a chance to bond. For them it is like a series of meetings where you are basically sent away again as soon as you say hello!"

But now that you've aborted the bonding, you might as well pause for a day or two as others have said, give O. and B. a chance to calm down. (maybe).

This is a quote from one of Wiebke's write-ups:
"Scent swapping - why not
What many owners are not aware of - and what the scent swapping method ignores - is that guinea pigs are territorial and protective of their denning area.

The scent of another guinea pig in their home is perceived as an invasion, causes stress (instead of allaying it) and a negative perception of the new guinea pig before they even meet face to face. Instead of a bonding help scent swapping is actually rather a killer of a potential friendship and can cause a hostile athmosphere straight away."

You say you are worried for Ophelia. I understand, it can be hard watching a bonding try-out, especially if it gets a bit wild, but if she 'knows' guinea language and normal guinea behaviour (some guineas don't e.g. ones who came from massive hoarding situations etc or else ones who were alone in their formative weeks/months), then it's good to sit back a bit and trust her to figure it out. You only intervene as far as I know if there's constant bullying or if one guinea does submission but the other guinea keeps attacking or there's a bloody fight. Throw a cloth / towel over them or between them rather than going in with your hands. I've never had to do that though.

Good luck with your bond tomorrow/day after. I hope somebody on the forum who really knows about bonds responds.

 

[KHBz]

I believe that giving them a few days together side-by-side with interaction through the bars can help them get used to each other before bonding. I have only bonded guinea pigs once though so I’m not an expert at all. I was advised against scent swapping - only scents with both of them go into the shared cage if the bonding is successful

Echoing others, maybe trying again tomorrow or in a few days in a neutral room/pen with no hideys and just a pile of hay to see how they go? If you can leave them side-by-side up until then? I used spare C&C grids to make up a bonding pen but I know others have used bath tubs or cornered off bits of rooms as well

Thank you We made sure all the fleeces were fresh, so the space didn’t smell of either of them. Now it all smells of both of them. Should we switch new fresh fleeces in?

 

[KHBz]

@KHBz @PiggyintheMiddle
In your shoes, I'd certainly re-read all the information on bonding, all those write-ups by Wiebke and whoever else. There is a lot of information, a lot to read and absorb. I think that might answer your questions or some of them at least and make you feel a bit more confident going into a new bonding try-out.

This is a quote from one of Wiebke's write-ups: (BBM)
"Five minute tester meetings and play dates also don’t work – for guinea pigs every meeting is a proper introduction, and every separation is a prematurely aborted bonding, which is very upsetting and frustrating for them! If you stop any bonding at the first sign of dominance behaviour, your guinea pigs simply will never have a chance to bond. For them it is like a series of meetings where you are basically sent away again as soon as you say hello!"

But now that you've aborted the bonding, you might as well pause for a day or two as others have said, give O. and B. a chance to calm down. (maybe).

This is a quote from one of Wiebke's write-ups:
"Scent swapping - why not
What many owners are not aware of - and what the scent swapping method ignores - is that guinea pigs are territorial and protective of their denning area.

The scent of another guinea pig in their home is perceived as an invasion, causes stress (instead of allaying it) and a negative perception of the new guinea pig before they even meet face to face. Instead of a bonding help scent swapping is actually rather a killer of a potential friendship and can cause a hostile athmosphere straight away."

You say you are worried for Ophelia. I understand, it can be hard watching a bonding try-out, especially if it gets a bit wild, but if she 'knows' guinea language and normal guinea behaviour (some guineas don't e.g. ones who came from massive hoarding situations etc or else ones who were alone in their formative weeks/months), then it's good to sit back a bit and trust her to figure it out. You only intervene as far as I know if there's constant bullying or if one guinea does submission but the other guinea keeps attacking or there's a bloody fight. Throw a cloth / towel over them or between them rather than going in with your hands. I've never had to do that though.

Good luck with your bond tomorrow/day after. I hope somebody on the forum who really knows about bonds responds.

I knew not to abort the bonding and I knew the Blue Cross was wrong when she said that. I didn’t think putting a grid between them was aborting. I haven’t yet read the rest of your post and will do so, but piggie-the-middle can now take over on the thread. Thank you, though. I am very scatty and I forget things.

 

[PiggyintheMiddle]

My Mother is feeling really bad. I must have missed the thing about the hideys as well.

Edit: I see now that it said empty space.

 

[Piggies&buns]

When bringing home a new piggy they should live in their own side by side cages for a good week or so before you even attempt to bond them.
Trying to introduce adult sows on the day you bring a new one home isn’t a good idea. This will increase the risk of fear aggression. Both piggies but especially the new one will be on edge so they both need plenty of time to settle.

Now you have separated, leave them side by side for several days - a week, even more maybe - and wait until they are both settled and calm.

When you try again, you need to put them both somewhere totally neutral, no hides and see how it goes.

 

[KHBz]

When bringing home a new piggy they should live in their own side by side cages for a good week or so before you even attempt to bond them.
Trying to introduce adult sows on the day you bring a new one home isn’t a good idea. This will increase the risk of fear aggression. Both piggies but especially the new one will be on edge so they both need plenty of time to settle.

Now you have separated, leave them side by side for several days - a week, even more maybe - and wait until they are both settled and calm.

When you try again, you need to put them both somewhere totally neutral, no hides and see how it goes.

Thank you.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Sorry I’m just reading a bit more of the thread, so to clarify:

- They need to be side by side. How long they are left side by side before you bond depends very much on how the piggies are. Some only need a couple of days, some can need a couple of weeks - there is no right answer and you have to play it by ear.
They do need to get used to each other between the bars but We do not recommend any scent swapping any items between the cages (can be seen as territory invasion). Betsie has her items in her half and Ophelia has her items in her half during the time they are kept side by side.

- while you shouldn’t abort a bonding where things are going well, you should abort it if fear aggression is involved. Putting a grid between them is aborting the bonding but it’s fine in this case if tensions were rising while they were together

- now there is grids between them, you cannot use that cage to attempt to bond them in again. So when the time comes to do it, you need to put them both somewhere totally different. They both go in at the same time; just hay and water. No hides. If you add hides into a bonding pen then they become territories which you do not want in a neutral zone, consequently it can then lead to hostility.

Whether this is going to work out, you won’t know until you try again but do prepared to step back in with separation as sows do tend to hold a grudge

 

[JaseChase]

Bonding is always very stressful! There’s a lot of information and it’s very easy to miss things. You’ve had excellent advice above please don’t feel bad, fingers crossed some time settles them down

 

[KHBz]

I didn’t do scent swapping. I put them in a cleaned cage which was used once, a year ago, for one week. Everything I put in was totally washed and clean. Before collecting her, I had asked here about the bit in the guide which said to let the piggy settle in first, as I was concerned that that would mean the space was no longer neutral and smelled of Betsie. I know I asked at far too short a notice. So we put them in at the same time, at opposite ends. However, Ophelia was brought downstairs from her run in a cuddle cup and I stupidly put the cuddle cups in too. I too had copied and pasted, for our reference, some of the bits that Mrs Tiggiewinkle has highlighted. The scent-swapping that has taken place is with them both having been on the fleeces in the cage, simultaneously and not one before the other. It is also with both having now been in both the cuddle-cups. I rang the Blue Cross after it had gone wrong and that was when the theme of scent swapping came up. I guess I just leave all those fleeces in now and we go somewhere else, with the 6x2foot run tomorrow or another day.

 

[KHBz]

Sorry I’m just reading a bit more of the thread, so to clarify:

- They need to be side by side. How long they are left side by side before you bond depends very much on how the piggies are. Some only need a couple of days, some can need a couple of weeks - there is no right answer and you have to play it by ear.
They do need to get used to each other between the bars but We do not recommend any scent swapping any items between the cages (can be seen as territory invasion). Betsie has her items in her half and Ophelia has her items in her half during the time they are kept side by side.

- while you shouldn’t abort a bonding where things are going well, you should abort it if fear aggression is involved. Putting a grid between them is aborting the bonding but it’s fine in this case if tensions were rising while they were together

- now there is grids between them, you cannot use that cage to attempt to bond them in again. So when the time comes to do it, you need to put them both somewhere totally different. They both go in at the same time; just hay and water. No hides. If you add hides into a bonding pen then they become territories which you do not want in a neutral zone, consequently it can then lead to hostility.

Whether this is going to work out, you won’t know until you try again but do prepared to step back in with separation as sows do tend to hold a grudge

Thank you very much for all of this. Should I now take out the fleeces that are in the cage and that they have both been on, to replace with other fresh ones, or do I just leave those in at this point?

 

[Piggies&buns]

. However, Ophelia was brought downstairs from her run in a cuddle cup and I stupidly put the cuddle cups in too. I too had copied and pasted, for our reference, some of the bits that Mrs Tiggiewinkle has highlighted. The scent-swapping that has taken place is with them both having been on the fleeces in the cage, simultaneously and not one before the other. It is also with both having now been in both the cuddle-cups.

So, the bonding the area needs to be neutral - and it is therefore easier to have nobody’s scent the cage.
However, that isn’t the whole story - you can have scent in the cage but it categorically must be the scent of BOTH pigs and not just one (therefore is not the territory of just one).
It is just easier to be totally scent free though!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you very much for all of this. Should I now take out the fleeces that are in the cage and that they have both been on, to replace with other fresh ones, or do I just leave those in at this point?

as they are in their own territories for the time being, I would probably put fresh fleece in - just so they aren’t smelling the other pig in their space while they are trying to settle side by side

 

[PiggyintheMiddle]

This is what it’s like at the moment.

 

[flowerfairy]

Excellent. I had a herd a few years ago now. I took in an older sow and let her settle in a cage next to the herd for almost a week. I was then offered another older sow and she only settled next to them for a day or two (my poor choice). Luckily they were both accepted but the one who had fewer days to acclimatise seemed a great deal more nervous.

It looks like your two will have a nice cosy space each where they can smell and see each other and gradually get used to being neighbours before the big introduction.

Really exciting. Lots of calm bonding vibes coming your way.

 

[KHBz]

as they are in their own territories for the time being, I would probably put fresh fleece in - just so they aren’t smelling the other pig in their space while they are trying to settle side by side

I’ll do that and one of the other slaves can hold Betsie and try to reassure her that all is ok. (She’s used to being held.)

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

My Mother is feeling really bad. I must have missed the thing about the hideys as well.

@KHBz Please don't feel bad. I'm sorry if my words maybe sounded harsh, I didn't mean to come across that way. Most of us seem to be learning here one way or another, me too. I've made tons of mistakes over the years with my piggies. I've been very lucky with bonding, often aided by people who were a few steps ahead of me, including the local rescue bringing a number of piggies over the years and starting the bonding process with me.

Now that @Piggies&buns has joined the thread, listen to her not me!

 

[KHBz]

Betsie seemed calm and stolid when she came to us, lying down in the open. However, she remained in hiding under a pile of hay when I gave them breakfast this morning — even with coriander under her nose, which she had seemed very happy about yesterday (even after the failed bonding). So, she’s a frightened little (big) piggy.

This situation, in a divided Ferplast 160, isn’t tenable for much longer. Too small. What do I do? I’ll post photos of Ophelia’s set-up for advice on how best to keep them separate but side-by-side.



I can remove the loft area and ramp and make Ophelia's a much smaller space. However, the panels are transluscent and not grids, as you can see. This would mean that contact, other than smell and sound, is not enough. I could put the cage horizontally, itself as the divider between Ophelia and Betsie (Betsie in the cage). However, I am also wondering about dismantling the cage itself and somehow putting those grids across the middle to make comparable spaces for each. I would leave Ophelia's hutch in, but put the wooden hideys in Betsie's space. .... If it is even possible to make the grids secure.

However, I am also totally despairing. From everything I had read, having it start badly means that it is just not going to work now. I am, allegedly, an intelligent person (or rather, used to be), but reading up about something is so different from actually doing it. (A bit off topic: I had thoroughly researched the making of a wildlife pond and yet, once I had done it, I could see how it should have been done. It works, and is good, but it could be much better. I know for next time.)

So, this, I have thoroughly mucked up. I can see what I should have done now. But is it even worth persisting? Two recently bereaved older sows -- in itself problematic, as I had read. Added to that, my ineptitude. I had expressed my worries repeatedly to the Blue Cross (and didn't accept the two older, already bonded, sows they offered) but they reiterated the friendliness of sows ... Having been in contact with as many rescues within an hour-and-a-half's drive that I could find, for the past 12 days, we lept at the chance of the single sow. [One of the rescues didn't accept the location of our set-up, the initial reason they gave patently not true in our case, but that's a different story.]

I just keep wondering if we throw in the towel now, rather than invest days/weeks, for something that just isn't going to work now.

NB -- of course, everything in Betsie's area will be washed and fresh.

 

[JaseChase]

I’m so sorry you’re feeling so bad, please know it’s not your fault. You’re doing your best for these little girls

I’ve never bonded sows, but I think giving them time side by side and letting Betsie settle in is worth it to have another go at bonding them. I should think you could set up the cage for Betsie beside Ophelia’s usual setup for interaction - but I’m not experienced enough to know if the grids you have allow for enough interaction

@Piggies&buns knows far more than I do and might be able to chime in

Betsie is still settling in to a new environment and will be likely very spooked and skittish for a while. Give her time to settle and you might see her get more comfortable and please don’t beat yourself up. I have brain fog from health conditions and I know how frustrating it is to do all the research and then things still go wrong. This situation is salvageable (though ofc you can never guarantee any two piggies will like each other)

I had a ton of help and advice on here when I was bonding piggies and without it I’d have got so much wrong, despite reading the guides thoroughly!