Sick dominant boar getting bullied by submissive

[Echo_n_co]

Hi! I am new to the forum and would appreciate any advice you can give! My boars issues are partly medical separation and behavior, so I am sorry if this is the wrong thread.

Recently I noticed that my dominant boar Echo (~2.5yrs) has started developing a red sore on one of his front feet, I suspect the beginning stages of bumble foot. I have been treating him at home with water/epsom salt soaks and neosporin (I have been very careful to wipe excess from his foot so he doesn't ingest). It does not seem to be getting worse and there are no scabs, however Echo will favor the injured paw when standing to eat/grooming himself. My main concern is that the pain from his foot is making him irritable and aggressive towards his cagemate Moose (~11months). He began to chase him and attempt hump him constantly, but Moose is not very 'accepting' and began nipping back as a warning. I noticed a tiny scratch on Mooses nose the night that I noticed the sore on Echos foot, I put antibiotic cream on and placed him back in the cage as I didn't feel this was bad enough for a separation. However, yesterday morning (the next day after the scratch) I noticed that Moose was randomly and often running up at Echo and showing a lot of dominance behaviors at Echo, rumble strutting and humping the side/face. Echo is usually a chill pig and is more of a rumbler than a humper, but he is really lunging at Moose and pulling fur from the bum a couple times. In turn, Moose is also now lunging and trying to bite back, I'd assume trying to take this opportunity to become top pig. Moose started a couple lunge close calls that looked like would turn into balls of fur, in which some fur was pulled from the other by both of the boys, but there hasn't been bites or blood drawn past the nose scratch. However, they'd gone at it like that with small naps and eating (5-10 min) in between for about 8 hours, and they were both still pretty worked up (I was a mess by this point) so I put a divider down the middle of their 2x5 c&c as it was 330am and I needed to sleep. I really tried to hold off as I know it can be detrimental to medically separate, but I felt that it was too stressful for Echo to continue due to his foot and did not want the sore to open/bleed or him to get injured even worse. I now feel like I need to wait until Echo's foot is completely healed before attempting re-introduction, as I don't want Moose to keep bullying him and taking advantage while he's ill. I've seen them both rumble strut back and forth along the divider since separated, but Moose still seems like he wants to nip at Echo.

Is it likely that Echo's injury is the cause for the change/added aggression in both of their behaviors? Or am I completely off?
Does this sound like it would be cause for separation? I don't want to harm their bond but I felt Echo's health and the potential for a full fight was also important. When should I attempt to re-introduce?


Thanks!

 

[Piggies&buns]

First, please see a vet for his foot. We always recommend seeking veterinary advice and not home treatments. If he is in pain, then he at least needs pain killers prescribed for him
Guinea Lynx :: Pododermatitis

If their bond is in trouble, then you have done the right thing by separating them. It might well be that he has now seen his chance to try and take over. This may not end favourably If neither is prepared to back down
Now you have separated, I would give them a few days to calm down, see a vet and assess.
You can then try a neutral territory reintroduction once theyve had some time apart to calm down. Please do not just remove the divider and let them wander into each other’s half of the cage as this will likely cause trouble.
Upon neutral territory reintroduction, it will become obvious fairly quickly whether things are going to work out between them. If they fight again, then their separation will sadly need to be permanent, with each piggy needing their half of the cage to be extended.

Bonds In Trouble
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

 

[Echo_n_co]

First, please see a vet for his foot. We always recommend seeking veterinary advice and not home treatments. If he is in pain, then he at least needs pain killers prescribed for him
Guinea Lynx :: Pododermatitis

If their bond is in trouble, then you have done the right thing by separating them. It might well be that he has now seen his chance to try and take over. This may not end favourably If neither is prepared to back down
Now you have separated, I would give them a few days to calm down, see a vet and assess.
You can then try a neutral territory reintroduction once theyve had some time apart to calm down. Please do not just remove the divider and let them wander into each other’s half of the cage as this will likely cause trouble.
Upon neutral territory reintroduction, it will become obvious fairly quickly whether things are going to work out between them. If they fight again, then their separation will sadly need to be permanent, with each piggy needing their half of the cage to be extended.

Bonds In Trouble
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

I thought that should be the case as well since he seems to be in some pain, even though he is walking with it. I've called 5 vets qualified with pigs in the last 2 days and all of them have said that what I have been doing is fine and if he was walking/eating I didn't need to bring him in (since it is just a red sore, not scabbing or open wound yet)... I also called the only emergency vet in the area that "treats exotics" and they didn't even know what bumble foot was :/ I am still very concerned for his pain though but a bit at a loss for what to do... The day I noticed it I bought pain cream from LA guinea pig rescue, where I usually bring them and have been following their steps closely. It should be arriving 1-2 days but I feel bad making him wait that long for more relief. I know they hide their pain so I'm concerned he's showing less than he feels.

I wonder whether I should bring him in to any normal vet, just so I am able to get a prescription? I am concerned still that they won't be knowledgable enough about bumble foot....

 

[Free Ranger]

It's a tricky one as if they don't know about piggies they might not get the right treatment anyway. Can LA GPR point you in the direction of a decent vet?

Bumblefoot is on the sole of the foot and can sometimes be associated with 'urine scald'... bright pink sores where piggy has been standing in pee. Even if only one foot has a bumble it's worth checking the other soles for sores. If your wound is on the top of the foot and you noticed it on the same day as the scratch on Moose's nose it could actually be an injury from fighting.

I had two boars and when the dominant one entered his final decline the other was quick to take advantage and I split them pretty rapidly. It does happen. They were happy as neighbours through the bars where they could see, sniff and contact each other with each having their own space. I didn't have your issue about what to do when my pig 'got better' though. In your situation I would certainly have split the boys though! Good luck with them x

 

[Echo_n_co]

It's a tricky one as if they don't know about piggies they might not get the right treatment anyway. Can LA GPR point you in the direction of a decent vet?

Bumblefoot is on the sole of the foot and can sometimes be associated with 'urine scald'... bright pink sores where piggy has been standing in pee. Even if only one foot has a bumble it's worth checking the other soles for sores. If your wound is on the top of the foot and you noticed it on the same day as the scratch on Moose's nose it could actually be an injury from fighting.

I had two boars and when the dominant one entered his final decline the other was quick to take advantage and I split them pretty rapidly. It does happen. They were happy as neighbours through the bars where they could see, sniff and contact each other with each having their own space. I didn't have your issue about what to do when my pig 'got better' though. In your situation I would certainly have split the boys though! Good luck with them x

Yeah that's what I was thinking and why I've been hesitant to take him, especially since some vets are still not letting owners come in with them and I'm not just gonna drop him off with a loon.

I have checked all his feet and Moose's as well, but his single paw is the only one with a sore or swelling. Perhaps it could just be urine scald since they live on guineadad fleeces and I change them every 4-6 days depending on the mess... I'm not sure another cause for bumble foot and why it would only be the one foot out of eight.

I'm relieved that I did the right thing by separating them when I did. I am hoping once Echo is healed and they've calmed down, I can attempt re-introduction... I am hoping for the best but expecting the worst, I hate to see them fight.

 

[piggieminder]

Could you get him a LAGPR health check, Saskia or one of the other people there who are experienced with Bumble Foot should be able to tell you if it is BF or not. If you need a prescription for a pain killer could you book the next available slot with their vet clinic which is there 2 Saturday's a month, might be quicker than the 3-4 week wait for a decent piggie vet I hear you have in your area now. I can recommend small pieces of vetbed in places where he sits the most to help prevent urine scald. You need to put an absorbant layer under it as it lets the urine soak down but not back up.

 

[Echo_n_co]

Could you get him a LAGPR health check, Saskia or one of the other people there who are experienced with Bumble Foot should be able to tell you if it is BF or not. If you need a prescription for a pain killer could you book the next available slot with their vet clinic which is there 2 Saturday's a month, might be quicker than the 3-4 week wait for a decent piggie vet I hear you have in your area now. I can recommend small pieces of vetbed in places where he sits the most to help prevent urine scald. You need to put an absorbant layer under it as it lets the urine soak down but not back up.

Yeah the wait is horrible around here, there's just not enough vets in the area unfortunately. I did try to get a health check appointment, but those are also booked for the upcoming weeks already unfortunately. This morning I ended up just driving him to an experienced vet around 2 hours away, she was able to squeeze him in so I figured this was better than taking him to any old 'regular' vet! She was able to prescribe the painkillers, so now Echo can get proper relief

Would laying the vetbed over their guineadad fleece be enough of an absorbent layer? Or should I put an extra pee pad in between? Definitely want to be preventative so there 'hopefully' won't be a next time!

 

[piggieminder]

I'm glad you managed to get him seen, what a drive though. Did the vet say if it was Bumble Foot or if it was a scald sore which could develop into BF?
You could try putting the vetbed on the guineadad fleece and see if the top of the vetbed stays dry. I tend to use newspaper under mine to save on the washing but I do have 4 cages to wash for! I am finding my older boy with arthhritis finds the vetbed too thick to walk on so I'm cutting the vetbed into smaller squares with newspaper underneath and putting it just in the places he mostly lies.

 

[Echo_n_co]

I'm glad you managed to get him seen, what a drive though. Did the vet say if it was Bumble Foot or if it was a scald sore which could develop into BF?
You could try putting the vetbed on the guineadad fleece and see if the top of the vetbed stays dry. I tend to use newspaper under mine to save on the washing but I do have 4 cages to wash for! I am finding my older boy with arthhritis finds the vetbed too thick to walk on so I'm cutting the vetbed into smaller squares with newspaper underneath and putting it just in the places he mostly lies.

She said that it was just a sore and had not developed into bumblefoot yet. Luckily I check both boys feet often so I noticed in time! I will see which works better, thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Echo_n_co]

Hi!

Echo's foot has now finally healed completely, so I have a re-introduction update:

I attempted to rebond Echo and Moose earlier today, but I think it may have failed... First, I used neutral smelling towels and put the bonding pen in my bedroom, since I don't let them go in there for floor time so it seemed to be the most 'neutral' area I have. As usual, I only put a big pile of hay in the middle and some veggies. I put Echo first, then Moose into the pen, For the first 10 minutes or so they were munching peacefully, occasional rumble struts from Echo, but very mild dominance. All of a sudden they both began teeth chattering very loudly and Echo began to chase Moose a bit. Moose however kept squaring up and they would teeth chatter, circle a bit, and have like open mouths at each other? After a bit of this, one of the square ups ended with Echo jumping at him and getting a tuft of hair off from Moose, but they then ran to separate sides of the cage while still chattering. I wanted to give them a second so I tried to nudge both of them farther apart with an oven mitt and both of them bit at the mitt! I felt if they did that to each other and not the mitt, blood could have potentially been drawn, so I ended the bonding session... I am worried I may have separated them too soon, or did I do something wrong? Blood was not drawn, and never has been past a few small scratches/swipes to Mooses nose previously, at least not yet... so did I stop them too soon?

I am prepared to have them be a 'can't live together can't live apart' pair, but is this my only option? Is there any possibility I could attempt another re-introduction? I wonder whether a completely new location may help them (like taking them to a friends house for the session) so there's no familiar smells. I also did not do a buddy bath before trying, which I have always done in the past for them. I feel I should wait awhile before trying again if I do, but is this even an option for them or have they made up their minds?

 

[Piggies&buns]

If things seemed aggressive and they were not comfortable with each other then you dont need to wait for a fight before separating them. Only you can make the call as to whether you stopped it too soon - we only have your description to go on. However, if they have decided they dont like each other, then it isnt going to work out.
You don't need to go to a different house to try it - it just needs to be done somewhere they dont see as their own territory.
Buddy baths are not recommended anymore.

 

[Echo_n_co]

If things seemed aggressive and they were not comfortable with each other then you dont need to wait for a fight before separating them. Only you can make the call as to whether you stopped it too soon - we only have your description to go on. However, if they have decided they dont like each other, then it isnt going to work out.
You don't need to go to a different house to try it - it just needs to be done somewhere they dont see as their own territory.
Buddy baths are not recommended anymore.

Thank you, I feel I did the right thing then by stopping the re-introduction when I did then. As side by side cagemates now, can they still have floor time together? I know that the allowing them together/separating them can harm the bond more than help, but does this mean I can no longer have them both out for lap time or floor time at the same time occasionally? I am considering attempting a re-introduction later down the line (maybe in a few more weeks/months), but I do not want to ruin their chances of success accidentally .

 

[Free Ranger]

My two separate pairs (B/G and G/G) don't get on at all whether in a large space inside or outside... we've had some invasions which have not ended well!
However, we got some of the C&C grids and cable-tied them together to make a fold-up zig-zag wall which we just throw out wherever we put them to run round and that sorts the problem... they will first patrol the wall to make sure the 'enemy' can't get through and then relax!

 

[Echo_n_co]

My two separate pairs (B/G and G/G) don't get on at all whether in a large space inside or outside... we've had some invasions which have not ended well!
However, we got some of the C&C grids and cable-tied them together to make a fold-up zig-zag wall which we just throw out wherever we put them to run round and that sorts the problem... they will first patrol the wall to make sure the 'enemy' can't get through and then relax!

Ah thanks for the suggestion! I’ve got some extra C&C grids I can use to split my living room to keep them apart

 

[Siikibam]

I’m sorry it didn’t go according to plan. If you’ve now permanently separated then you can’t have them out at the same time, even for short bursts. I don’t know whether I would consider trying again in a while. Unfortunately they rarely change their minds. They will be just fine as neighbours. They still have interaction through the bars.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you, I feel I did the right thing then by stopping the re-introduction when I did then. As side by side cagemates now, can they still have floor time together? I know that the allowing them together/separating them can harm the bond more than help, but does this mean I can no longer have them both out for lap time or floor time at the same time occasionally? I am considering attempting a re-introduction later down the line (maybe in a few more weeks/months), but I do not want to ruin their chances of success accidentally .

As Siikibam has said, when piggies cannot have a successful bond and cannot live together, they cannot have any physical time together - you will need to do laptime and playtime separately permanently. To piggies, putting them together is a bonding session each and every time which then gets stopped every time and that causes stress. If they dont like each other, they dont want to be physically together and they dont tend to change their minds. It doesnt harm the bond as such, because they dont properly have one.