Medical Separation Issues

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rmanuel

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So, I found the information on this forum too late regarding not separating guinea pigs after surgery, and now I’m experiencing significant issues. I’m not sure there’s a solution, but if anybody has any ideas, I’d be really grateful.

I have two sows - Molasses and Parfait - who have been together since birth. I adopted them from a rescue two years ago and they’ve never been separated for more than a few hours before. Around six months ago, Molasses was diagnosed with ovarian cysts. (She likely had them for a while before that, but it took me some time to recognize the signs as I never had a piggy with an ovarian cyst before.) I started getting her hormone shots at the vet, which would work for about a month before her symptoms would kick back up again - including dominance behaviors (chasing, mounting, rumblestrutting; more annoying than aggressive). Parfait seemed pretty chill about it all and just kind of let it happen, maybe gently snapping back if Molasses annoyed her too much. I’m wondering, though, if maybe this soured their relationship more than I thought.

After six months of underwhelming results with the hormone shots, I finally made the decision to get Molasses spayed last Thursday (5/4/23). According to directions from the vet, I separated her into a small area - actually the second floor of their cage with the opening blocked off and the ramp removed, about a 1x2 c&c grid area. She’d been recovering really well, so on Saturday - less than three days of separation - I popped her back into the main cage so she could have some time to move around a bit, since she looked to be getting a bit depressed all cramped up in the small second floor area. I honestly didn’t think there’d be much issue, given how chill-seeming Parfait had been about Molasses’s hormone issues and how short of a separation it had been. But… wow. As soon as they smelled each other, it was instant and aggressive teeth chattering and chirping, fluffed up fur, raising onto their back legs to look bigger, etc.; and they only didn’t manage to start actually lunging and biting because I immediately dropped an opaque barrier between them and separated them.

Naturally, it was after this incident that I found the information on this site. So the next day I tried more neutral territory on my bed. Same thing. Thank goodness both of them are bonded to ME, even if they aren’t so much to each other anymore, because all I had to do was stick my arm between them to keep them apart, and they didn’t bite me.

I ordered some extra wire grids and split their cage today in hopes they could make better friends through the bars. No dice. Same issues, and this time Molasses literally bashed her face into the bars trying to attack Parfait. I had to put up an opaque barrier, and it look them a while to calm down.

So… is it hopeless at this point? Should I just give it more time, or is it already too late? I have the terrible sinking feeling that it might be, which will mean I have to say goodbye to one of them. I have enough room for them to live separately next to each other, if they can get along through the bars, but I don’t have enough room to home two piggies in each half in order to give them a companion.
 
Unfortunately a lot of vets aren't aware of the dangers of separating pigs especially after an operation.

Their bond may have been a bit fragile due to the constant issues with poor Molasses's seasons/cysts but it seems that the bond has broken and is unlikely to come together again.
Is your bed in the same room as the cage? There is a chance if you make a new area with a nice big pile of hay and give them a few days to cool off you can try once more but if they did not get on then, that the bond would be classed as done and both girls would have to live side-by-side, but you know your girls best.
I am sorry you did not get a chance to find this forum earlier and fingers crossed your girls cool down if you try again in a couple of days.

You may find these guides helpful -
Bonds In Trouble
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
 
I’m sorry to hear this.

So as you now know it needed to be a neutral territory reintroduction. If that has also failed then sadly it does sound as if they can no longer be together.

They need to live side by side as that will enable interaction and companionship. They don’t need a new companion each - side by side as single piggies is fine. If you need to leave the opaque divider then that is also fine - give them time to settle and then gradually change them to wire dividers again.
 
Thank you @Piggies&buns and @piggl for responding and for your advice. To piggl’s point, my bed is in the same room as their cage. I hadn’t thought of that possibly being an issue. I can give the living room or another room in the house a shot and see how that goes. I was also wondering whether the fact that Molasses is still on antibiotics might be a contributing factor? One of my coworkers mentioned today that her cats fought when one of them was on antibiotics because they smelled wrong. I don’t know if the same applies for guinea pigs, though, and I’m sure it wouldn’t account for 100% of their issues. Currently, I still have them separated by the opaque barrier in order to give them some time to cool off and get more acclimated to their halves of the cage, and they seem to be doing fine with that so far. I’m honestly a little scared to try again because I’m afraid to know if the answer to this whole thing is that they won’t even get along through the bars and I have to rehome one of them… 😕
 
Being unwell itself can cause dominance issues - if the dominant is unwell then the submissive can try to take over, the dominant won’t like it and that can cause a bond problem. But that doesn’t sound to be it in this case. It comes across that their bond is damaged now and are just wanting their own territory

They should be able to live side by side - occasionally we hear of some who need a little space between them though.
Even if they can’t be side by side with normal wired grids, you could use Perspex on the sides, so that they can see through it but can’t get to each other

It might also be that you need to add extra grids so that each cage does have four sides (not just one c&c divided in half) and then move the cages slightly apart from each other for a while.
Don’t forget separates piggies need a minimum of a 3x2 c&c each.

I have a pair of separated boys. They live side by side and I had to use smaller holed grids (the bars are about 1cm apart on each grid) because they would try and bite each other through the bars initially after their separation. Now they are fine side by side - they just rumble at each other along the divider.
 
Might be best if you keep them separate until Molasses is completely fit and her hormones have settled down, to give it the best chance. At the moment she is probably more defensive than usual because she knows she's not fit, and also because of the hormone imbalance. So it may not be the best time to reintroduce them.

We have two boars who had a bad falling-out last year. We ended up neutering them and keeping them side by side for some months to let the hormones settle down. We eventually had a successful reintroduction. Sometimes it can really help to give it time.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Being unwell itself can cause dominance issues - if the dominant is unwell then the submissive can try to take over, the dominant won’t like it and that can cause a bond problem. But that doesn’t sound to be it in this case. It comes across that their bond is damaged now and are just wanting their own territory

They should be able to live side by side - occasionally we hear of some who need a little space between them though.
Even if they can’t be side by side with normal wired grids, you could use Perspex on the sides, so that they can see through it but can’t get to each other

It might also be that you need to add extra grids so that each cage does have four sides (not just one c&c divided in half) and then move the cages slightly apart from each other for a while.
Don’t forget separates piggies need a minimum of a 3x2 c&c each.

I have a pair of separated boys. They live side by side and I had to use smaller holed grids (the bars are about 1cm apart on each grid) because they would try and bite each other through the bars initially after their separation. Now they are fine side by side - they just rumble at each other along the divider.
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I just wanted you to know that your method worked! It took a long time to get here because Molasses had an issue with her teeth (likely as a result of the disrupted eating during her recovery) that took a while to diagnose and then resolve. But while I don’t have the room to make two full cages for two pairs of guinea pigs, I do have just enough room to create two single piggy cages pushed a couple inches apart. So I put in that extra grid barrier like you said, and now that they’ve figured out they can’t actually touch each other, they get along perfectly through them! They’re getting along so well that I’m wondering whether a full reintroduction might actually be possible after a time.

Thank you all so much for sharing your advice, your experiences, and your support. This whole thing was just such an upsetting time for me. You guys gave me both options and hope, which was truly a life saver. ❤️
 
I’m so glad they are able to live harmoniously next to each other! Great news!

I just want to urge caution over considering a reintroduction based on their interactions in their current living arrangements.
Interactions between the bars are never an indication that they can live together. Two piggies, whose bond has previously failed, will live side by side happily because they are not having to share a territory, but it does not mean they will want to or can be back together and sharing territory again.
Once piggies have had a fall out, they do not tend to change their minds and the separation, more often than not, must be permanent.
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m so glad they are able to live harmoniously next to each other! Great news!

I just want to urge caution over considering a reintroduction based on their interactions in their current living arrangements.
Interactions between the bars are never an indication that they can live together. Two piggies, whose bond has previously failed, will live side by side happily because they are not having to share a territory, but it does not mean they will want to or can be back together and sharing territory again.
Once piggies have had a fall out, they do not tend to change their minds and the separation, more often than not, must be permanent.
Click to expand...
That makes sense, and I’m perfectly comfortable keeping them separate for the rest of their lives if need be. I was more thinking, like Cheekypigs mentioned with her boars, giving it a number of months and then tentatively seeing if they’d like to get on again. They don’t even rumble at each other through the bars now, and there’s a small possibility that the reason they reacted so badly to each other before was because Molasses was still feeling poorly, even though I wasn’t aware of it at the time, due to her teeth issues. But I wouldn’t push it. Like I said, I am just so happy that the grid barrier is working. I love both of them so much, so the thought of having to choose one of them and re-home the other was just heartbreaking (although of course I love them enough that I would’ve done it if it was what needed to be done for them).
 
That’s fine, I just didn’t want you to think that because they don’t react between the bars any longer that it was a surefire sign they’d go back together. It is unusual for it to happen in the case of a full bond breakdown.

I have two boys who were a pair but their bond broke down. They live side by side with each other (and also side by side with my bonded pair of boys). They are absolutely fine side by side, interact with each other with no issues. The bars between them are baby bars (at the time they had their fall out, they were able to slip through normal c&c grids) so are very small holes. Two days ago I did some cage rearranging and didn’t realise I’d accidentally put one normal sized c&c grid between them. They cannot get through them now they are older but as soon as they realised, they instantly tried to bite each other through the bars.
 
Yes, two pigs who each have their own territory, interacting through a barrier, is a completely different social situation than the same two pigs in the same territory trying to negotiate family dynamics.

I mean, humans are the same. You might really get on well with your neighbours, but what would you do if they suddenly moved in?
 
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