My two girls who have loved each other forever suddenly hate each other after trying a new cage setup ..

[Bayberrybae]

Hi again! You may have seen my post earlier today about my girl Zuma being spooked. The situation has now gotten a bit weirder, and I’m genuinely confused .. So if you’d like to give your two cents, please read !

Zuma and Ruby have been together for 6 months, totally fine, no complications, the best of friends. I decided to make them a new, bigger C&C cage. Upon putting them in there, their first night, a fight broke out in the middle of the night which left Zuma really spooked and teeth chattering. I took a look at Ruby and she had gotten a nasty scratch/bite in her eye and had to take her to the ER vet (it was 4:30 am), got her eye drops, and then kept them separated for the rest of the day. So tonight I tried putting them back together again in their old cage, and another fight broke out. Teeth chattering, lunging at the face, you know the deal. So I obviously put them in separate cages, for now. But my concern is that they're not going to resolve this little situation, and that I'm going to have to house them separately now. They’ve never had an issue with one another, and usually they absolutely love each other.

I'm just a bit confused and concerned on the situation; and at a bit of a loss as to what to do. I'm obviously going to keep them separated for a few days, then maybe try again. But again I’m just very confused on this behavior and why all of the sudden they hate each other. Could just be bad stress on them both but, still.. Any two cents?

 

[Piggies&buns]

Sadly, you may never know what has caused them to fall out.
It sounds likely it’s the change in environment though - piggies who are feeling scared and insecure over something like a change in environment can become aggressive.
It’s definitely wise to keep them apart to allow her to calm down. If you are going to try again, then ensure you put them on neutral territory to reintroduce. It will become clear fairly quickly if they can work things out and still want to be together.

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Bonds In Trouble

 

[Wiebke]

Hi!

Did you use huts with just one exit and put everything cleaned etc. into a totally cleaned new cage so all group scent markings were removed and turned the new place into a potentially hostile new ground way out of their comfort zone?

Every change of surroundings requires a renewal of the hierarchy as the territory has changed so you are basically seeing a repeat of the post-intro bonding phase. If there are underlying issues, then these can come to the fore. Part of dominance behaviour is locking a piggy into a corner/a hut, which means that for the other party the only way out may be via a full-on defence bite. Once that happens, it means the end of a relationship unfortunately.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics (see chapter VII)

I am very sorry that your well meant upgrade has backfired.

 

[Bayberrybae]

Thank you so much for your input! So I didn’t clean their huts, which there were 2 .. and there were tunnels in there for them as well. It’s honestly what I assumed, the stress of a new environment and dominance factors, being the issue, but this sudden hatred is so unlike these girls. Even putting them in their same old cage with all their scent and everything, they’re still wanting to fight. I’m afraid I’m either going to have to go through the binding process all over again with them (which may not be pretty) or they just may never be fit for one another again. Just so shocking to me..

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you so much for your input! So I didn’t clean their huts, which there were 2 .. and there were tunnels in there for them as well. It’s honestly what I assumed, the stress of a new environment and dominance factors, being the issue, but this sudden hatred is so unlike these girls. Even putting them in their same old cage with all their scent and everything, they’re still wanting to fight. I’m afraid I’m either going to have to go through the binding process all over again with them (which may not be pretty) or they just may never be fit for one another again. Just so shocking to me..

I'm so sorry

So, have you since tried putting them back in their old cage and they have now had another fight? If so, then it sounds as if they have made up their mind about each other if they have now had multiple fights and you won’t be able to go through the bonding process again. They will need go stay permanently separated as their bond is broken

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

Hi, I've had a bit of a similar situation a few years ago. Two girls about 3.5-4 years old, having lived together all their life, impossible to bond them with other piggies - they were always the ultimate duo.

One day - out of the blue - there was a fight and it happened at a really akward time. They couldn't get away from each other quick enough and they both hurt each other fighting. It was my fault for keeping them in a too small enclosure at that moment, but they had never had any arguments before during the months they had spent with me (they had spent many months in a rescue before they came to me because nobody wanted two white piggies with white fur and red eyes and difficult personalities. Their cage there was smaller and they never showed any aggression towards each other - only the rest of world).
So I wasn't aware there could be a problem. And it happened so quickly I couldn't do anything to prevent it though I was at home at that time.

Anyway, one (Honey) had a bite wound at her lower lip that needed stiches, the other (Sugar) only a few scratches. I had to keep them seperate because of the stiches, but even after this time Honey had a massive problem with her former best friend.
She was totally freaked whenever I tried to bring them in direct contact. They lived in two cages in the same room and had free roaming time in this room, divided by a grid setup (the room was a fright to look at and even worse to clean). When they had contact through the grid, they tried to get together, but in direct contact they started to fight.
Something broke in their relationship during this first fight and Honey just didn't trust Sugar anymore.

So I tried to bond them again in a way a bit like the way that is recommend for cats that have fallen out.
I kept them without direct contact for a while and then I monitored any interaction at the grid closely to keep these interactions only positive. I spent time with each of them seperately to play (they both enjoyed to play, but were never really interested in food).
When I had the feeling, they both had calmed down completley and maybe forgotten what had happened at that special day, I waited a bit longer and then tried to bond them again in a room they both didn't know.
It took 2 or 3 months of living apart if I remember correctly, but the reintroduction worked.
They returned to a much bigger cage with completley new furniture and lived together peacefully for a few weeks.
Then Honey got very sick and I had to seperate them again because Sugar started to harass her.

They were really special ladys (rescued laboratory piggies) and quite a handful. I really learned a lot in this time.
One of the things I learned was to control my need to help if I didn't really have the space or the time for a second group.

 

[VickiA]

Sadly it is the case that sows, just like boars, can fall out and decide they aren’t going to tolerate each other. It can happen in the blink of an eye. And sows are very good at bearing and remembering grudges. So my feeling is that if they’ve had this level of fall out, it’s unlikely that you will ever get them to live together again in harmony.

 

[Bayberrybae]

I'm so sorry

So, have you since tried putting them back in their old cage and they have now had another fight? If so, then it sounds as if they have made up their mind about each other if they have now had multiple fights and you won’t be able to go through the bonding process again. They will need go stay permanently separated as their bond is broken.

I'm so sorry

So, have you since tried putting them back in their old cage and they have now had another fight? If so, then it sounds as if they have made up their mind about each other if they have now had multiple fights and you won’t be able to go through the bonding process again. They will need go stay permanently separated as their bond is broken

Yes, a very very brief fight. I had only put them in their old cage for about 5 minutes and they were fine, then a few minutes in the teeth chattering started and then they lunged at each other. So I quickly stopped it and separated them. I’m going to try one more time in their play pen in a few days, almost to try to re-introduce them in a way.

 

[Bayberrybae]

Hi, I've had a bit of a similar situation a few years ago. Two girls about 3.5-4 years old, having lived together all their life, impossible to bond them with other piggies - they were always the ultimate duo.

One day - out of the blue - there was a fight and it happened at a really akward time. They couldn't get away from each other quick enough and they both hurt each other fighting. It was my fault for keeping them in a too small enclosure at that moment, but they had never had any arguments before during the months they had spent with me (they had spent many months in a rescue before they came to me because nobody wanted two white piggies with white fur and red eyes and difficult personalities. Their cage there was smaller and they never showed any aggression towards each other - only the rest of world).
So I wasn't aware there could be a problem. And it happened so quickly I couldn't do anything to prevent it though I was at home at that time.

Anyway, one (Honey) had a bite wound at her lower lip that needed stiches, the other (Sugar) only a few scratches. I had to keep them seperate because of the stiches, but even after this time Honey had a massive problem with her former best friend.
She was totally freaked whenever I tried to bring them in direct contact. They lived in two cages in the same room and had free roaming time in this room, divided by a grid setup (the room was a fright to look at and even worse to clean). When they had contact through the grid, they tried to get together, but in direct contact they started to fight.
Something broke in their relationship during this first fight and Honey just didn't trust Sugar anymore.

So I tried to bond them again in a way a bit like the way that is recommend for cats that have fallen out.
I kept them without direct contact for a while and then I monitored any interaction at the grid closely to keep these interactions only positive. I spent time with each of them seperately to play (they both enjoyed to play, but were never really interested in food).
When I had the feeling, they both had calmed down completley and maybe forgotten what had happened at that special day, I waited a bit longer and then tried to bond them again in a room they both didn't know.
It took 2 or 3 months of living apart if I remember correctly, but the reintroduction worked.
They returned to a much bigger cage with completley new furniture and lived together peacefully for a few weeks.
Then Honey got very sick and I had to seperate them again because Sugar started to harass her.

They were really special ladys (rescued laboratory piggies) and quite a handful. I really learned a lot in this time.
One of the things I learned was to control my need to help if I didn't really have the space or the time for a second group.

This is my hope! Both of these two girls were rescued as well, coming from bad situations, so they’ve been attached to each other kind of as comfort buddies .. So after giving them some time apart, I’m hoping they’ll reconnoiter.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes, a very very brief fight. I had only put them in their old cage for about 5 minutes and they were fine, then a few minutes in the teeth chattering started and then they lunged at each other. So I quickly stopped it and separated them. I’m going to try one more time in their play pen in a few days, almost to try to re-introduce them in a way.

If a fight is breaking out that quickly after being put together, then more often their feelings are being made very clear that they simply do not want to be together. I personally would not try to reintroduce if things deteriorated within minutes last time.

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

This is my hope! Both of these two girls were rescued as well, coming from bad situations, so they’ve been attached to each other kind of as comfort buddies .. So after giving them some time apart, I’m hoping they’ll reconnoiter.

I agree with the other posts that it will be a big challenge to bring them together again. And if you bring them together the next time and they start to fight again, then I wouldn't try again.

As I wrote above, it took me many weeks and a lot of work and all of my guinea pig and training experience to bond Honey and Sugar again ... and it only lasted until the next challenge broke their bond again.
So the odds are not on your side.

If you want to try it again, you really have to make a good plan how to start the introduction process and go step by step, always judging the possibility to go one step further from the current situation. This will not be a quick process and if you go ahead one step too fast, it can ruin everything.
It would be an easier solution to except that they can't live with each other any more and try for another partner for each of the girls (maybe a neutered boar) if that's in any way possible.

But you didn't write how old they are and you probably don't know anything about their prior social experienced or living circumstances.
If they really only lived together as comfort buddies, maybe they just decided that they feel save enough now to show their true feelings for each other. Guinea pigs are really very complex little creatures.

 

[Bayberrybae]

I agree with the other posts that it will be a big challenge to bring them together again. And if you bring them together the next time and they start to fight again, then I wouldn't try again.

As I wrote above, it took me many weeks and a lot of work and all of my guinea pig and training experience to bond Honey and Sugar again ... and it only lasted until the next challenge broke their bond again.
So the odds are not on your side.

If you want to try it again, you really have to make a good plan how to start the introduction process and go step by step, always judging the possibility to go one step further from the current situation. This will not be a quick process and if you go ahead one step too fast, it can ruin everything.
It would be an easier solution to except that they can't live with each other any more and try for another partner for each of the girls (maybe a neutered boar) if that's in any way possible.

But you didn't write how old they are and you probably don't know anything about their prior social experienced or living circumstances.
If they really only lived together as comfort buddies, maybe they just decided that they feel save enough now to show their true feelings for each other. Guinea pigs are really very complex little creatures.

Ruby is 2, Zuma just turned 1. All I know is that Zuma was surrendered from a bad home who mistreated her horrendously, and Ruby had a long history of medical issues, so she just couldn’t find a home to go to and was stuck at the rescue for most of her life. I can’t house more than 2 pigs (just a personal choice nowadays) so i either keep them separated, or not.

 

[Bayberrybae]

This is my hope! Both of these two girls were rescued as well, coming from bad situations, so they’ve been attached to each other kind of as comfort buddies .. So after giving them some time apart, I’m hoping they’ll reconnoiter.

So, good news so far! I almost re-introduced them in a way .. started fresh in their play pen. Gave them veggies to bond over, and after a little bit of teeth chattering and one small fight, they’ve reconciled! They were in there for a few hours. They seem to be nearly back to the way they used to be. Obviously it’ll take time for them to get used to things again, but this is a good sign so far. Hoping for the best and no more fighting.

 

[Piggies&buns]

The small fight would still concern me. Do keep in mind your separation plan though because its always possible the rift will now always be there and could blow up again at any time