12 sows 1 boar

[Deleted member 142232]

Hey! Looking for any advice/tips on my current bonding.

I got my last boar neutered after his friend passed away a few months ago, it's 7 weeks post op and I started the bonding. Cleaned the full living room of scent, extended the cage, got all open ended hides, and changed the cage. Washed all 13 pigs whilst doing so.

The male is lovely and not aggressive, he's chasing and humping but also just chilling. A few of my females however are getting very annoyed and causing him to chatter by squaring up to him.

Two of my girls have always been agnsty against newcomers but they're taking it out on everyone and causing fights. Not tornados, but chattering, and jumping at eachother results in one chattering and one crying and the chill ones chattering too.

No blood drawn yet but still looks very distressing and agressive. In my bonding I allow ear bites but no face, and it's work with all my bonding and they all get along great. This has been my biggest bond but I'm struggling on what to think. They've been together approximately 5 hours and I know at this stage removing the male wouldn't stop anything and the girls would still be at eachother. What should I do in this sisituation? I expected the male to be the problem but hes just in the middle of it.

The have approximately 14ft × 8ft of space and are not caged and free roamed. I've made space outside of their 'cage' for fed up/non involved pigs to go to distress and it's woworking. They have 8 bottles and 5 bowls and I hide each + 2 extra.

The girls range from 10 months to 4 years old, it's two of the older ones that are setting everyone off. I'm so worried that the cage might be too small? Or that the few houses I cleaned and put back are causing it? Even if it's just that i wiped their scent off everything and them too?

Even if I move, it sets a few off to run, chatter and then jump at another.

 

[Viennese Furbabies]

I've never had a bonding with such a big group before so my advice might be all wrong in your situation. Also every bonding situation is special because of the individual guinea pigs involved.

With bondings, I always go into a different room than the one the piggies live in. I know that's hard as you need a lot of space. But if you use part of the cage, it isn't enough to just clean it. The girls still recognise their territory.

I never use any houses in a bonding situation or in the days after if it was a difficult bonding. Only fleece tunnels and lot's of hay.

I don't introduce all the girls at once (but my maximum was 5 girls) but start either with the most dominant one if I want to find out quickly if it could work or the most mallow one if I can take a lot of time for the bonding.

I do break off a bonding if the emotions go very high and try again on the next day or after two days. The stress hormones build up quickly causing anypig to go after any other pig (especially if the bond between those pigs is a little strained to start with) and they need time to get those hormones out of their system again.

It's great that you have got such a big group of females living together but you should be aware that such a big group can have a tendency to consist of smaller subgroups that tolerate each other. In a bonding situation or another change in the group dynamics, you could face a break up of this large group into these subgroups.

As for the space, in a bonding situation and the first time after you should always go for the maximun of available space but as written above, I don't have any experience with bondings in such a large group.

 

[Piggies&buns]

First, any bonding space needs to be totally neutral and not somewhere existing pigs see as their own territory. I appreciate that may be difficult if there is no other room for you to put all the pigs but bonding in their own territory is usually something which causes problems.
The second is that you should not use any hides in the bonding space as that further creates territories.

Washing the pigs will not make any difference to their ability to bond.

Hierarchies are made from the top down. A boar doesn’t change the sow hierarchy but instead he has to fit into sow hierarchy. Any new pig has to work their way through the existing hierarchy to find their own space. He may not ever be top pig to the herd. The issue is going to be if he is not accepted by anybody at the top then the bonding may not work out

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

I have got as far as 1 boar and 13 sows at the biggest with plenty of smaller mixed gender groups, trios and pairs. But I have had also plenty of group bonding failures over the last 15 years; especially where it involved fear-aggressive piggies. For a time I did specialise more in adopting stuck in rescue piggies with social issues and finding them a socially acceptable companion.
Admittedly, I have found it easier to build up a group around a charismatic dominant 'patriarch' than introducing a new boar later on with older sows in the leading position. I currently still have 5 'husboars' but I am now well over 20 neutered boars in all with multiple bondings, additions or re-bondings and group changes over the course of a full life time.

Your problem is that acceptance is not happening from all sows and is unlikely to happen as these things go. Please abort the bonding for now and allow all piggies to cool down for a couple of days since stress levels are currently high and the bonding process has got stuck.

You will have to ask yourself some tough questions: Would it be better to split off your teeth chattering sows from the group or give up on your boar? Otherwise fronts will harden over the coming days and your sows will more likely eventually range behind their chattering companions and close ranks against a newcomer who is not acceptable for the group as a whole.

The longer you persist with a bonding that goes to a high stress level and persists there, the more likely a failure becomes. It depends all how highly your teeth chattering sows are ranked. Without knowing the exact situation and being able to read the body language, I cannot comment any closer on the actual dynamics you are confronted with.

If you are unlucky, your girls have already made up their mind. Dominant or fear-aggressive sows past the ideal pup-bearing age (ca. 3 years) are generally becoming less interested in accepting a new boar because the urge (but not the ability to) reproduce seems to lessen somewhat.

Personally, I prefer to conduct the intro in a neutral space outside the normal group territory so the new piggy is less perceived as an intruder. No huts to get possessive/defensive over, please, during early stages of the bonding!

If a bonding goes overnight, I prefer to separate if the group hierarchy is not yet fully established or has run into a high stress snag and rather re-start on the coming day. This cuts majorly down on stress-related issues and I am there to step in asap. Even this relies on all piggies being non-aggressive and careful to only go up to the line but not cross it in outright tussles and chases.

If group bonding is proceeding well past acceptance and leadership establishment but has not yet passed the roughest bit of full bit of the hierarchy establishing dominance, then I let it run on overnight in the bonding run so when the group transfers back to their normal cage/denning area, the worst of the bonding process is over and they go their as a bonded group to re-establish their territory and work through the small print.

- Face-biting is defence biting from a sow on edge that is feeling cornered.
- The submission screamer is not a problem. That is a stressed out under-sow.
- It is not the fault of the boar; with some sows it is unfortunately a matter of principle if they feel that a new is able to challenge their position (fear-aggression).

Here is some information you may find helpful and interesting:
- Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
- A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours (see especially entries Dominance and Fear aggression)
- " Biting" And What You Can Do (Biting, Tweaking, Nibbling and Nipping)
- The Herd, the Group and I: Investigating Guinea Pig Identity and Society

 

[Deleted member 142232]

First, any bonding space needs to be totally neutral and not somewhere existing pigs see as their own territory. I appreciate that may be difficult if there is no other room for you to put all the pigs but bonding in their own territory is usually something which causes problems.
The second is that you should not use any hides in the bonding space as that further creates territories.

Washing the pigs will not make any difference to their ability to bond.

Hierarchies are made from the top down. A boar doesn’t change the sow hierarchy but instead he has to fit into sow hierarchy. Any new pig has to work their way through the existing hierarchy to find their own space. He may not ever be top pig to the herd. The issue is going to be if he is not accepted by anybody at the top then the bonding may not work out

Update: after leaving it over night and checking them all, tensions

I've never had a bonding with such a big group before so my advice might be all wrong in your situation. Also every bonding situation is special because of the individual guinea pigs involved.

With bondings, I always go into a different room than the one the piggies live in. I know that's hard as you need a lot of space. But if you use part of the cage, it isn't enough to just clean it. The girls still recognise their territory.

I never use any houses in a bonding situation or in the days after if it was a difficult bonding. Only fleece tunnels and lot's of hay.

I don't introduce all the girls at once (but my maximum was 5 girls) but start either with the most dominant one if I want to find out quickly if it could work or the most mallow one if I can take a lot of time for the bonding.

I do break off a bonding if the emotions go very high and try again on the next day or after two days. The stress hormones build up quickly causing anypig to go after any other pig (especially if the bond between those pigs is a little strained to start with) and they need time to get those hormones out of their system again.

It's great that you have got such a big group of females living together but you should be aware that such a big group can have a tendency to consist of smaller subgroups that tolerate each other. In a bonding situation or another change in the group dynamics, you could face a break up of this large group into these subgroups.

As for the space, in a bonding situation and the first time after you should always go for the maximun of available space but as written above, I don't have any experience with bondings in such a large group.

I usually do bonding in a playpen but as the herd has gotten bigger, no playpen is big enough I was gonna try in the kitchen but didn't want to have to walk into it, I live in a small flat and the living room is the biggest. Thank you for the advice though! The sub group thing makes sense, the girls have always been split in 3 groups before the bond, makes sense that it would be strained rn!

Update: tensions are still a bit high but from the conflict I've witnessed this morning, they're all disengaging and running away and the male is just chilling eating. Rather than them fronting eachother. All my hides are also open ended with 2 exits each and am mostly using wooden bridges. 70% of my herd seem to be happy/chill right now, it's just a few outliers

 

[Deleted member 142232]

Hi

I have got as far as 1 boar and 13 sows at the biggest with plenty of smaller mixed gender groups, trios and pairs. But I have had also plenty of group bonding failures over the last 15 years; especially where it involved fear-aggressive piggies. For a time I did specialise more in adopting stuck in rescue piggies with social issues and finding them a socially acceptable companion.
Admittedly, I have found it easier to build up a group around a charismatic dominant 'patriarch' than introducing a new boar later on with older sows in the leading position. I currently still have 5 'husboars' but I am now well over 20 neutered boars in all with multiple bondings, additions or re-bondings and group changes over the course of a full life time.

Your problem is that acceptance is not happening from all sows and is unlikely to happen as these things go. Please abort the bonding for now and allow all piggies to cool down for a couple of days since stress levels are currently high and the bonding process has got stuck.

You will have to ask yourself some tough questions: Would it be better to split off your teeth chattering sows from the group or give up on your boar? Otherwise fronts will harden over the coming days and your sows will more likely eventually range behind their chattering companions and close ranks against a newcomer who is not acceptable for the group as a whole.

The longer you persist with a bonding that goes to a high stress level and persists there, the more likely a failure becomes. It depends all how highly your teeth chattering sows are ranked. Without knowing the exact situation and being able to read the body language, I cannot comment any closer on the actual dynamics you are confronted with.

If you are unlucky, your girls have already made up their mind. Dominant or fear-aggressive sows past the ideal pup-bearing age (ca. 3 years) are generally becoming less interested in accepting a new boar because the urge (but not the ability to) reproduce seems to lessen somewhat.

Personally, I prefer to conduct the intro in a neutral space outside the normal group territory so the new piggy is less perceived as an intruder. No huts to get possessive/defensive over, please, during early stages of the bonding!

If a bonding goes overnight, I prefer to separate if the group hierarchy is not yet fully established or has run into a high stress snag and rather re-start on the coming day. This cuts majorly down on stress-related issues and I am there to step in asap. Even this relies on all piggies being non-aggressive and careful to only go up to the line but not cross it in outright tussles and chases.

If group bonding is proceeding well past acceptance and leadership establishment but has not yet passed the roughest bit of full bit of the hierarchy establishing dominance, then I let it run on overnight in the bonding run so when the group transfers back to their normal cage/denning area, the worst of the bonding process is over and they go their as a bonded group to re-establish their territory and work through the small print.

- Face-biting is defence biting from a sow on edge that is feeling cornered.
- The submission screamer is not a problem. That is a stressed out under-sow.
- It is not the fault of the boar; with some sows it is unfortunately a matter of principle if they feel that a new is able to challenge their position (fear-aggression).

Here is some information you may find helpful and interesting:
- Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
- A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours (see especially entries Dominance and Fear aggression)
- " Biting" And What You Can Do (Biting, Tweaking, Nibbling and Nipping)
- The Herd, the Group and I: Investigating Guinea Pig Identity and Society

Thank you for your advice and experience! After the night and a check over in the morning, there are no breaks in skin ect. The male is probably the least problematic and it has went to 2 maybe 3 females that are very agnsty mainly to eachother. The male is getting along with all and staying clear of them 3 and them 3 are steering clear of eachother. Apart from 2-3, they are all sleeping and eating together. It's good to know that the high pitch whining is just the lower pigs being submissive!

I had fully changed the shape, size and position of their cage and took out all their stuff and bought new open ended hides prior. Aswell as scrubbing the whole living room and their cage of scent. I thought this might have been the equivalent of a neutral different space, for the future is that good or bad? Or do i need to put them in a completely different room

Update is in another comment.

 

[Deleted member 142232]

First, any bonding space needs to be totally neutral and not somewhere existing pigs see as their own territory. I appreciate that may be difficult if there is no other room for you to put all the pigs but bonding in their own territory is usually something which causes problems.
The second is that you should not use any hides in the bonding space as that further creates territories.

Washing the pigs will not make any difference to their ability to bond.

Hierarchies are made from the top down. A boar doesn’t change the sow hierarchy but instead he has to fit into sow hierarchy. Any new pig has to work their way through the existing hierarchy to find their own space. He may not ever be top pig to the herd. The issue is going to be if he is not accepted by anybody at the top then the bonding may not work out

Wish I knew the washing part took about 2 hours!

I took alot of measures with the cage, fully changing its size and layout. scrubbing the whole room and the cage. Wish somewhere made a playpen big enough honestly

He's definitely not going to be top pig, and he's already accepted it he's sticking to lower to mid level pigs to sit/go by. He's honestly the least problematic at the moment, it's the fighting between the 2 top females at the moment that's very agnsty.

I fully agree about the few house type hides I put in, the fights are always near them. I added a few in so my very timid submissive pigs had a place to hide. But I will definitely think about removing them and putting an open shelter.

 

[Deleted member 142232]

Hey! Looking for any advice/tips on my current bonding.

I got my last boar neutered after his friend passed away a few months ago, it's 7 weeks post op and I started the bonding. Cleaned the full living room of scent, extended the cage, got all open ended hides, and changed the cage. Washed all 13 pigs whilst doing so.

The male is lovely and not aggressive, he's chasing and humping but also just chilling. A few of my females however are getting very annoyed and causing him to chatter by squaring up to him.

Two of my girls have always been agnsty against newcomers but they're taking it out on everyone and causing fights. Not tornados, but chattering, and jumping at eachother results in one chattering and one crying and the chill ones chattering too.

No blood drawn yet but still looks very distressing and agressive. In my bonding I allow ear bites but no face, and it's work with all my bonding and they all get along great. This has been my biggest bond but I'm struggling on what to think. They've been together approximately 5 hours and I know at this stage removing the male wouldn't stop anything and the girls would still be at eachother. What should I do in this sisituation? I expected the male to be the problem but hes just in the middle of it.

The have approximately 14ft × 8ft of space and are not caged and free roamed. I've made space outside of their 'cage' for fed up/non involved pigs to go to distress and it's woworking. They have 8 bottles and 5 bowls and I hide each + 2 extra.

The girls range from 10 months to 4 years old, it's two of the older ones that are setting everyone off. I'm so worried that the cage might be too small? Or that the few houses I cleaned and put back are causing it? Even if it's just that i wiped their scent off everything and them too?

Even if I move, it sets a few off to run, chatter and then jump at another.

EDIT: all 12 sows were fully bonded with two top females before adding the male.

 

[Wiebke]

Wish I knew the washing part took about 2 hours!

I took alot of measures with the cage, fully changing its size and layout. scrubbing the whole room and the cage. Wish somewhere made a playpen big enough honestly

He's definitely not going to be top pig, and he's already accepted it he's sticking to lower to mid level pigs to sit/go by. He's honestly the least problematic at the moment, it's the fighting between the 2 top females at the moment that's very agnsty.

I fully agree about the few house type hides I put in, the fights are always near them. I added a few in so my very timid submissive pigs had a place to hide. But I will definitely think about removing them and putting an open shelter.

Some more dominant First Ladies very much prefer a non-dominant boar and sows who are more on the submissive side prefer a male Patriarch. The boars in larger groups just fit into the existing hierarchy at the level they are punching; they get handed down the ladder from the top until they get to a sow they are more dominant to or slot in at the bottom.

I've had all sorts over the years, from charismatic leader Hywel (who I adopted for his big personality) to gentle 5 months old Gethin who adored his 5 years old Tesni (who unceremoniously dumped similarly aged Hywel after fighting hard for the position of Favourite Concubine - her sister Ffwlbri was the First Lady - over 4 years before. First Concubine is the sow who hangs out most with a husboar in a group; it can be the First Lady but not necessarily.
And I have had gentle Gareth (his name means gentle) who was happy to do what his strong-minded sows told them...
Young Terfel grew into a master diplomat who kept his three strong-minded older cataract sows in line without them noticing most of the time; he was my greatest teacher in terms of piggy whispering and learning some of the subtleties of dominance and peace keeping.

It is highly likely that the bonding has brought up existing unresolved conflicts that have been simmering under the surface between your ASBO sows.