Attempting a larger harem group with 2 boars?

[Urmel]

We currently have a bonded boar pair (both 4 years old) and, in a separate group, 3 sows (all 1 year old) whose husboar has just crossed the rainbow bridge.
We have seen how much the late husboar has flourished in a harem setting, and we would like to give this chance to our two remaining boars as well. The two boars have been best friends since the day they met, which has persisted across different group settings of 3-4 boars, and this hasn't changed at all in a year as a pair in smelling distance from the sows. They are both very peaceful and rather submissive. We've heard that larger groups with enough sows per boar can work out sometimes, and we think if any boars could peacefully coexist in a larger group, it's them, so we would like to give it a chance. If it doesn't work out, we plan to separate them into two harems.

Of course, 3 sows is clearly not enough, I read somewhere that it needs 2-3 per boar at minimum. We do have space for a maximum of 3 more sows, so at most 6 sows in total, altough 2 more feels a bit more manageable. Does anyone have experience with mixed group constellations? What can we do to increase the chances of this working out?

Things we are wondering include:
How many additional sows should we get? (are even numbers imporant? Should we go for as many as possible, or fewer to cause less upset in the existing hierarchy?)
What should we consider when picking additional sows (ages, temperament, and should they already be bonded with each other?)
How to make introductions as smooth as possible? (introduce all at once, or expand the sow group first and then introduce the boars once that's stable)?

Any advice or experiences with similar groups are much appreciated, including stories of this going wrong. We only want what's best for our piggies and are open to any suggestions, including abandoning the idea entirely if you think this is a bad idea even with a plan B in place.

 

[Urmel]

Forgot to say, both boars are obviously neutered. Where we live, it's common for rescues to neuter all boars, so they were already neutered when we got them

 

[Ramia]

The boars would fight over the sows. There can only be one boar in a mixed pair.

 

[Wiebke]

Forgot to say, both boars are obviously neutered. Where we live, it's common for rescues to neuter all boars, so they were already neutered when we got them

Hi
Most boars will fight and fall out over sows; neutered or not. You cannot count that yours won't be in the majority.

If you have already got a neutered boar with your group, I would most definitely not risk it.

 

[Urmel]

Currently, the sow group does not have a boar. We don't want to get them another one, since we hope to have one big harem in the long run (i.e. once one of the current bonded boar pair dies). The question is if we should already attempt this now that both are still alive, with more sows added. A lot of German advice sites say mixed groups with 3 sows per boar can work out, but we have not found any details, so we're asking here because we're not sure if this is actually based ony any experience or just some theoretical musings on "natural behaviour" with little evidence to back it up in captivity

 

[Wiebke]

Currently, the sow group does not have a boar. We don't want to get them another one, since we hope to have one big harem in the long run (i.e. once one of the current bonded boar pair dies). The question is if we should already attempt this now that both are still alive, with more sows added. A lot of German advice sites say mixed groups with 3 sows per boar can work out, but we have not found any details, so we're asking here because we're not sure if this is actually based ony any experience or just some theoretical musings on "natural behaviour" with little evidence to back it up in captivity

I would not try to add another boar to an already existing group with a 'husboar' in charge.

Having two boars in a larger set-up can work out but there is never a guarantee and there is no reliable evidence to show that it works more often than not. It really very much depends on whether one of the boars is very laid-back or not. And even then, you'd better have a plan B at the ready in case it doesn't work out.

In nature, it would usually be more natural to happen with an already bonded boar pair (either closely bonded brothers where one is very much a follower or a teacher/baby companion) but wild montane guinea pig groups tend to be on the smaller side. The relatively few domestic experiments from forum members have nearly always been a fail - part of that is a space question but the other important part is personality compatibility.

However, the next question is whether your sows actually want more boars. By far not all older and especially dominant sows are willing to share the leadership. I have got a nice collection of that kind of t-shirts in my cupboard section for bonding failures...

 

[Urmel]

Maybe I am not putting this very clearly, but again, there is no husboar with the sows. He died, and the remaining sows are all still pretty young. We have a closely bonded boar-pair that is getting along great (even when they can smell sows in heat from downstairs!), and the separate group that is now only sows. So we would be introducing a well-established boar pair to a group of only sows.
If we do this, we would also be adding more sows so the numbers work out better. I hope this is clearer now? Not sure if this changes the situation at all, I get that this may not be a good idea regardless.

 

[Piggies&buns]

By reading of your longer term plan of one herd when one of your boys passes -

If you attempt to bond both boys with the girls now and it fails (the chances of success wouldn’t be on your side), you then have to split everyone up into two herds (a few sows with each boar) - but your long term plan is for one large herd - you would be unlikely to get those two sows groups to merge back together to form one herd again in the future.
Each group would have their own dominant sow and merging two adult sow groups is troublesome - it’s unlikely one of the dominant sows would be prepared to be demoted, so the bonding would fail and you would still be left with two separate sow herds.

 

[Urmel]

By reading of your longer term plan of one herd when one of your boys passes -

If you attempt to bond both boys with the girls now and it fails (the chances of success wouldn’t be on your side), you then have to split everyone up into two herds (a few sows with each boar) - but your long term plan is for one large herd - you would be unlikely to get those two sows groups to merge back together to form one herd again in the future.
Each group would have their own dominant sow and merging two adult sow groups is troublesome - it’s unlikely one of the dominant sows would be prepared to be demoted, so the bonding would fail and you would still be left with two separate sow herds.

Thanks, that's a really good point! And looking at the ages of the sows, we would likely be stuck with that situation for a really long time

 

[Piggies&buns]

Again looking at your long term plan - I know you’ve said that you don’t want to get another boar for your sows now and would rather bond them with whoever of your current boars is left behind, but at 4 years old, your boys could still live another 2+ years and by then the sows might be becoming less willing to accept a new boar at all (it’s easier to get a boar in while the girls are still young and in natural pup bearing years).

So It could be easier and more realistic to your long term herd goal to get another boar for the girls now while they are young and willing (add more sows if you still wish to do that) but leave your current two boys as they are.
When one of your current boys passes, would you have the option of that single boy living beside the herd so he would still have interaction between the bars for the remainder of his life, and you can still then realise your one herd goal.

 

[Urmel]

Again looking at your long term plan - I know you’ve said that you don’t want to get another boar for your sows now and would rather bond them with whoever of your current boars is left behind, but at 4 years old, your boys could still live another 2+ years and by then the sows might be becoming less willing to accept a new boar at all (it’s easier to get a boar in while the girls are still young and in natural pup bearing years).

So It could be easier and more realistic to your long term herd goal to get another boar for the girls now while they are young and willing (add more sows if you still wish to do that) but leave your current two boys as they are.
When one of your current boys passes, would you have the option of that single boy living beside the herd so he would still have interaction between the bars for the remainder of his life, and you can still then realise your one herd goal.

I know some lone boars do well enough with contact through grids, but I don't think either of our boars would do well with such a set up, no matter who dies first. We've temporarily separated the two with grids twice (once when introducing sows to the room, once for poopie monitoring), and both times they were very distraught despite being able to see and sit right next to each other. They tried to gnaw through the grids, looked very stressed and barely ate. We had to reintroduce them after less than a day because it was so sad to see.
If the sows don't accept the surviving boar in a couple years or so then I'd rather forego the herd goal and get more sows (or even another boar friend) for the surviving boar. In my mind, the separate boar is a last resort and not something I want to plan for if it can be avoided, especially not with these two.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

A lot of German advice sites say mixed groups with 3 sows per boar can work out, but we have not found any details, so we're asking here because we're not sure if this is actually based ony any experience or just some theoretical musings on "natural behaviour" with little evidence to back it up in captivity

I think some German guinea forums or advice sites are certainly writing based on experience. Like dieBrain.de . I note that they're one of the sites that stipulates at least 3 sows per Kastra (neutered boar) but they also add other information, like the neutered boars should come from 'Rudelhaltung' which I would interpret as having been mostly or exclusively in groups rather than pairs. As far as I understand the trends of thought and experience in Germany, guineas with experience of groups have learnt more about getting on with various different guineas, not just their one bonded companion and that's important when trying out tricky group combinations. I note also on dieBrain that they caution attempting groups sow/boar groups with more than one boar. Not for the inexperienced. Probably not that much different from what @Piggies&buns and @Wiebke are saying really. Tho of course if you never try it out, you won't learn by experience, so there is that.

I'm not sure in your shoes that I'd want to endanger a well-working boar pair with further plans for their future and for the future of the young sows. It might not all work out the way you envisage. It can all massively blow up. Been there, had that. And then what do you do? Suddenly have singles sprouting all over the place. Been there, had that. Also had to find solutions for all, really fast. Those solutions included not just Plan B but Plan C and D... I wouldn't recommend it.

I wouldn't want to have lone boars next to each other through grids either, I understand. I can also understand how cool it would be to have a big group of guineas - a whole herd because you can really see them in their element and with all their group behaviour. I've only ever watched a group like that, never had one and undoubtedly never will.

If it's permissible on this forum - I'm not sure it is - and you can read German, I can give you at least one link to a reputable guinea facebook site - they really know their stuff - and you could ask there. I'm not on Facebook but it's run by a rescue which is local to me. In some respects, they have slightly differing opinions to what's here on TGPF but it's also experience-based.

I'm in no way criticising the information here on TGPF: different countries, slightly differing experiences lead to slightly different solutions which become the norm. And when I've read the most detailed informative posts here written by Wiebke (or maybe others) i've occasionally seen references to what is standard in Germany but not in the UK because of xy. So kudos to TGPF for being very open to other opinions/experience.

 

[sport_billy]

I think some German guinea forums or advice sites are certainly writing based on experience. Like dieBrain.de . I note that they're one of the sites that stipulates at least 3 sows per Kastra (neutered boar) but they also add other information, like the neutered boars should come from 'Rudelhaltung' which I would interpret as having been mostly or exclusively in groups rather than pairs. As far as I understand the trends of thought and experience in Germany, guineas with experience of groups have learnt more about getting on with various different guineas, not just their one bonded companion and that's important when trying out tricky group combinations. I note also on dieBrain that they caution attempting groups sow/boar groups with more than one boar. Not for the inexperienced. Probably not that much different from what @Piggies&buns and @Wiebke are saying really. Tho of course if you never try it out, you won't learn by experience, so there is that.

I'm not sure in your shoes that I'd want to endanger a well-working boar pair with further plans for their future and for the future of the young sows. It might not all work out the way you envisage. It can all massively blow up. Been there, had that. And then what do you do? Suddenly have singles sprouting all over the place. Been there, had that. Also had to find solutions for all, really fast. Those solutions included not just Plan B but Plan C and D... I wouldn't recommend it.

I wouldn't want to have lone boars next to each other through grids either, I understand. I can also understand how cool it would be to have a big group of guineas - a whole herd because you can really see them in their element and with all their group behaviour. I've only ever watched a group like that, never had one and undoubtedly never will.

If it's permissible on this forum - I'm not sure it is - and you can read German, I can give you at least one link to a reputable guinea facebook site - they really know their stuff - and you could ask there. I'm not on Facebook but it's run by a rescue which is local to me. In some respects, they have slightly differing opinions to what's here on TGPF but it's also experience-based.

I'm in no way criticising the information here on TGPF: different countries, slightly differing experiences lead to slightly different solutions which become the norm. And when I've read the most detailed informative posts here written by Wiebke (or maybe others) i've occasionally seen references to what is standard in Germany but not in the UK because of xy. So kudos to TGPF for being very open to other opinions/experience.

Hello no issue here from staff about you posting the link, thanks for the heads up, very courteous of you

 

[Betsy]

Don't upset your already bonded groups. It won't work. I know from experience. 9 years ago I bought (because I didn't know about adoption then) a pair of sows Velvet and Betsy. 35 days later, Velvet had 2 boars (Christian and Dennis) and a sow (Meg) so a shop pregnancy. I got the boys neutered when they were old enough and introduced them to the girls because I didn't know any better not being a member of this Forum and the Vet said it would work when I asked him. Well it worked for around 11 months ONLY because Velvet was very dominant and observant and was there before trouble started. After that time Christian decided he wanted to be boss pig and staged a coup and then Velvet had to back down. Christian was very subtle in his leadership of the herd because he wouldn't let Dennis eat anything and would jump in front of him to stop him where there was food around. Christian didn't fight his brother mainly because he was still a bit wary of Velvet. So I had to split the herd. It was obvious that Betsy and Dennis should be together (it was love at first sight for both of them) and that Christian should be with Velvet. I had the dilemma of who to put Meg with as Dennis and Meg were very close, Meg and Betsy were friends but Velvet was her Mentor. In the end I decided to put Meg with Christian and Velvet.

 

[Wiebke]

I think some German guinea forums or advice sites are certainly writing based on experience. Like dieBrain.de . I note that they're one of the sites that stipulates at least 3 sows per Kastra (neutered boar) but they also add other information, like the neutered boars should come from 'Rudelhaltung' which I would interpret as having been mostly or exclusively in groups rather than pairs. As far as I understand the trends of thought and experience in Germany, guineas with experience of groups have learnt more about getting on with various different guineas, not just their one bonded companion and that's important when trying out tricky group combinations. I note also on dieBrain that they caution attempting groups sow/boar groups with more than one boar. Not for the inexperienced. Probably not that much different from what @Piggies&buns and @Wiebke are saying really. Tho of course if you never try it out, you won't learn by experience, so there is that.

I'm not sure in your shoes that I'd want to endanger a well-working boar pair with further plans for their future and for the future of the young sows. It might not all work out the way you envisage. It can all massively blow up. Been there, had that. And then what do you do? Suddenly have singles sprouting all over the place. Been there, had that. Also had to find solutions for all, really fast. Those solutions included not just Plan B but Plan C and D... I wouldn't recommend it.

I wouldn't want to have lone boars next to each other through grids either, I understand. I can also understand how cool it would be to have a big group of guineas - a whole herd because you can really see them in their element and with all their group behaviour. I've only ever watched a group like that, never had one and undoubtedly never will.

If it's permissible on this forum - I'm not sure it is - and you can read German, I can give you at least one link to a reputable guinea facebook site - they really know their stuff - and you could ask there. I'm not on Facebook but it's run by a rescue which is local to me. In some respects, they have slightly differing opinions to what's here on TGPF but it's also experience-based.

I'm in no way criticising the information here on TGPF: different countries, slightly differing experiences lead to slightly different solutions which become the norm. And when I've read the most detailed informative posts here written by Wiebke (or maybe others) i've occasionally seen references to what is standard in Germany but not in the UK because of xy. So kudos to TGPF for being very open to other opinions/experience.

No, the advice doesn't differ so much, either. I have tried a merger once with two non-aggressive, older neutered boars but it didn't go well. There was tension but the merger failed on the sows refusing to come to an agreement.

Guinea pig groups are actually territorial; if you want to get beyond a single boar, you will have to ideally build up a group from scratch with extra space or solutions for any piggies that do not fit in.

Like you state yourself, it is one of these social things that you can feel blessed if they happen - like a bonded boar pair living next to a sow pair with interaction through the bars (that was how little Nye started his love affair with big Hyfryd and her daughter who he went to live with after Nosgan's death) but it is definitely not something we would recommend. Nosgan was a boar who just didn't vibe with sows or was interested in them (and vice versa). Both boars were neutered, like all boars in my home, by the way. But you can never count on them happening to you specifically and exceptionally.

'Rudel' ('pack' in German) would refer to a large mixed group of (hopefully) neutered boars and sows; they will be used to tolerating other boars. In the UK boars with that kind of background usually come from uncontrolled multiplication/breeding, so-called 'hoarding' situations that have got out of hand but any rescues with a boar neutering policy will refuse rehoming two of their boars with any number of sows because of the high failure risk.

Anyway, this kind of set-up is generally way beyond the usual domestic scope and way beyond the cage space that the vast majority of our forum members from all over the world can provide. Our recommendations refer to our experiences with standard settings and are specifically formulated to prevent the most common fails/mistakes in standard guinea pig keeping situations when owners want to extend or merge pairs or smaller groups.

When I had my large group with up to 13 sows, my patriarch was far too dominant to tolerate another boar. He would regularly start feuds through the bars with my other neutered group boars from my cataract and my pensioner groups.

If you want to go beyond that, you need lots of space (most of which owners in other countries don't necessarily have) and you need to also have the capacity to deal with the fall-out from any bonding failures. And you will need two boars who are ideally best of friends and both totally non-aggressive by nature that are accepted by your sows.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

'Rudel' ('pack' in German would refer to a large mixed group of (hopefully) neutered boars and sows; they will be used to tolerating other boars. In the UK boars with that kind of background usually come from uncontrolled multiplication/breeding (so-called 'hoarding') situations that have gone out of hand but rescues with a boar neutering policy will refuse rehoming two of their boars with any number of sows because of the high failure risk.

Oh yes, Rudelhaltung by any reputable German rescue or website will refer to neutered boars! ! plus sows and yes, a largish group. They always refer to "Kastra" here. I know it's "Kastrat" really, but "Kastra" sounds less harsh or something, so that's why it's used. A rescue doesn't typically refer to "Bock/Böckchen (boar) unless they are not neutered because have all just been rescued.

Just to emphasise and agree with what you imply here and other parts of the forum, @Wiebke , and for @Urmel or anybody else wondering it's important for guinea owners to go with the experience in their own country or region (so long as there is any guinea-knowledgeable experience). Boars from hoarding situations etc wouldn't be able to deal with the complicated situation of a mixed group including another boar. They have to have learnt and experienced how to manage that kind of situation, it doesn't come naturally. If rescues in the UK typically deal somewhat differently with boars (different neutering policy as far as I understand, because typically more expensive at vet's + maybe other reasons), then even fewer UK boars could potentially handle this than in Germany. I see @Urmel that you list UK as your location, but I wondered about that based on some things you write plus your user name, so that's why I originally added some information about Germany. If you are in the UK though or in fact any non-German speaking country, please stick with the experience here on the forum.

A website like dieBrain talks about "Laien" (being in this case guinea owners who are not super-super-experienced with guinea groups and guinea behaviour) should not attempt this! A reputable rescue that allows two neutered boars into a group with sows will only do so for people they know who are very experienced and have probably already helped the rescue by taking on groups and matching boars with sows etc etc.

 

[Mrs Tiggy Winkle]

If ... you can read German, I can give you at least one link to a reputable guinea facebook site - they really know their stuff - and you could ask there. I'm not on Facebook but it's run by a rescue which is local to me. In some respects, they have slightly differing opinions to what's here on TGPF but it's also experience-based.

So this Facebook group is: Meerschweinchenstation Bad Dürrheim
It's run by the owner of this rescue: Meerschweinchenstation Bad Dürrheim

Also @Urmel if you are actually in Germany, please know that there are all sorts of possibilities when you get to the point of one of your bonded boars passing and you need a new friend in the same cage, rather than next door in a CC.