Teenage tantrums.

WorldsBestBoars

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So, I got my boys one day apart, from different litters, same breeder, when they were both supposedly 10 weeks old.
I got the nutty (King) Louis (tortoise shell, his highness) first and we bonded pretty well right away. He was instantly territorial when I brought home She-Ra (Princess of Power, black and white) who was more subdued, and a bit nippy, but who has grown huge in comparison with Louis.
They have always stayed in separate cages as the cages are a good size for 1 pig, but not 2. They spend a large amount of time together roaming indoors/outdoors, daily. They were both accepting each others humping and getting on pretty well until recently (the 4 month mark).

Louis insists on asserting his dominance on She-Ra who doesn't seem too bothered, but who will then just snap and bite him. Louis so far has received some minor cuts to his chest (and a decent pearl necklace) and just last week, a duo of tiny chunks out of his rump (see pics).

Understandably Louis is set on getting his own back, but apart from rumbling and chasing, doesn't really have the goods (or required meanness) to back it up and bite She-Ra, whereas She-Ra will go from 0-bite after about 2 minutes of mutual chasing.
Currently I've had to put them both in their cages and then take them out separately- but Louis goes NUTS if She-Ra is allowed out without him.
I've tried making separate areas for them indoors, but they always find some way of getting back to each other (normally Louis - he is very determined) so they can rumble side by side and start the whole thing over. I've also tried petting Louis while She-Ra is out so that he doesn't get jealous, he sits still with me but damn, he won't shut up!
I'm not into the idea of bathing them as I think it's temporary and I like the way my piggies smell! Given that they spend a lot of time on mutual turf they shouldn't be too fussed by each others scent.

I'm hoping that they will be ok eventually, the teenage years were hard on me too, but are there any other ideas out there for the world's best boars?
 

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Welcome to the forum.
Sorry if I sound a bit slow but is She-Ra a boar or a sow?

I’m not a bonding expert but I’m sure one will be along soon to help you.
What I do know is that with boars every time you separate them and reintroduce them they start the whole bonding process again.
I have sows and do know from bonding 2 pairs that it’s not for the faint hearted.

It would be lovely to see photos
 

Wiebke

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So, I got my boys one day apart, from different litters, same breeder, when they were both supposedly 10 weeks old.
I got the nutty (King) Louis (tortoise shell, his highness) first and we bonded pretty well right away. He was instantly territorial when I brought home She-Ra (Princess of Power, black and white) who was more subdued, and a bit nippy, but who has grown huge in comparison with Louis.
They have always stayed in separate cages as the cages are a good size for 1 pig, but not 2. They spend a large amount of time together roaming indoors/outdoors, daily. They were both accepting each others humping and getting on pretty well until recently (the 4 month mark).

Louis insists on asserting his dominance on She-Ra who doesn't seem too bothered, but who will then just snap and bite him. Louis so far has received some minor cuts to his chest (and a decent pearl necklace) and just last week, a duo of tiny chunks out of his rump (see pics).

Understandably Louis is set on getting his own back, but apart from rumbling and chasing, doesn't really have the goods (or required meanness) to back it up and bite She-Ra, whereas She-Ra will go from 0-bite after about 2 minutes of mutual chasing.
Currently I've had to put them both in their cages and then take them out separately- but Louis goes NUTS if She-Ra is allowed out without him.
I've tried making separate areas for them indoors, but they always find some way of getting back to each other (normally Louis - he is very determined) so they can rumble side by side and start the whole thing over. I've also tried petting Louis while She-Ra is out so that he doesn't get jealous, he sits still with me but damn, he won't shut up!
I'm not into the idea of bathing them as I think it's temporary and I like the way my piggies smell! Given that they spend a lot of time on mutual turf they shouldn't be too fussed by each others scent.

I'm hoping that they will be ok eventually, the teenage years were hard on me too, but are there any other ideas out there for the world's best boars?
Hi!

Louis is a boar and therefore mad to be with a sow, no surprise in that! Please try not to re-introduce when there have been full-on bites. And don't be dazzled by Louis' shenanigans; it is She-Ra's reaction that is one that counts as that gives you the clues as to the true state of the relationship. She sounds like a rather messed up and stressed out breeder sow to me; a reflexion of the place you have got your piggies from.

You will have to keep them apart anyway as She-Ra is most likely pregnant and will come into season again within hours of giving birth as you have not mentioned any de-sexing/neutering or spaying. Boars can make babies from 3-5 years and sows have their first season from 4-6 weeks. You'd better start reading up on pregnancy care and basic biology!
Make sure that you double-check the gender anyway; most breeders are not exactly known for their knowledge (apart from how to make babies) of the species they are breeding or any welfare concerns.
Sexing, Pregnancy & Baby Care(members only)

Please accept that we are a strictly non-breeding por-rescue forum; you have accepted our very explicit terms and rules in that respect during the registering process. We are going to help you sort out the mess you are most likely in only if you are complicit in stopping to breed in the future.
Terms of Service And Forum Rules
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/our-non-breeding-non-breed-showing-forum-policy-explained.134670/
 

WorldsBestBoars

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Hi, thanks, I did read all of that before! I wouldn't be posting if I didn't still have questions. I have stuck to observing Louis as king...but She-Ra obviously has the upper hand. I'm confused by your advice, Louis is top boar but She-Ra is the bitey/aggressive/bigger boar- so isn't it a matter of time before he establishes himself as boss?
 

Wiebke

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Hi, thanks, I did read all of that before! I wouldn't be posting if I didn't still have questions. I have stuck to observing Louis as king...but She-Ra obviously has the upper hand. I'm confused by your advice, Louis is top boar but She-Ra is the bitey/aggressive/bigger boar- so isn't it a matter of time before he establishes himself as boss?
Sorry, I have amended my post; I thought initially you were posting about two boars and not about a mixed gender pair.
Please read my last post again.
 

Wiebke

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Hi, thanks, I did read all of that before! I wouldn't be posting if I didn't still have questions. I have stuck to observing Louis as king...but She-Ra obviously has the upper hand. I'm confused by your advice, Louis is top boar but She-Ra is the bitey/aggressive/bigger boar- so isn't it a matter of time before he establishes himself as boss?
Can you please clarify - have you got two boars or a mixed gender couple? You have never used a gender related pronoun with She-Ra, other than calling her Princess?

Anyway, after those bites, they do not belong together. She-Ra is biting in defence to keep Louis away and is rather going for it.
 

WorldsBestBoars

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They are both boars. There are plenty of stories of boars making it through the teen years after a bite aren't there? :'(
 

WorldsBestBoars

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Hey- Wiebke, you completely changed your initial reply and that's made the rest of these posts a bit redundant! I did refer to She-Ra as a boy previously :)
 

Piggies&buns

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For boars, once actual fights and bites have happened that is the final straw and their relationship will not work. They can only get through it if one has fully backed down and is prepared to be the submissive but it doesn’t sound like that is going to be the case here.
 

WorldsBestBoars

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For boars, once actual fights and bites have happened that is the final straw and their relationship will not work. They can only get through it if one has fully backed down and is prepared to be the submissive but it doesn’t sound like that is going to be the case here.
Thanks. This is not what I want to hear but Louis is so determined...if he would leave She-Ra alone I think they could live in peace. :/
 

WorldsBestBoars

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Hi!

Louis is a boar and therefore mad to be with a sow, no surprise in that! Please try not to re-introduce when there have been full-on bites. And don't be dazzled by Louis' shenanigans; it is She-Ra's reaction that is one that counts as that gives you the clues as to the true state of the relationship. She sounds like a rather messed up and stressed out breeder sow to me; a reflexion of the place you have got your piggies from.

You will have to keep them apart anyway as She-Ra is most likely pregnant and will come into season again within hours of giving birth as you have not mentioned any de-sexing/neutering or spaying. Boars can make babies from 3-5 years and sows have their first season from 4-6 weeks. You'd better start reading up on pregnancy care and basic biology!
Make sure that you double-check the gender anyway; most breeders are not exactly known for their knowledge (apart from how to make babies) of the species they are breeding or any welfare concerns.
Sexing, Pregnancy & Baby Care(members only)

Please accept that we are a strictly non-breeding por-rescue forum; you have accepted our very explicit terms and rules in that respect during the registering process. We are going to help you sort out the mess you are most likely in only if you are complicit in stopping to breed in the future.
Terms of Service And Forum Rules
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/our-non-breeding-non-breed-showing-forum-policy-explained.134670/
My initial post says "So, I got my boys one day apart".
Got to say I think that this altered reply is quite harsh and judgemental to a first time piggie owner- it's good that you feel strongly about this, but if it were the case that I bought a female and male (and hadn't mentioned if they were spayed or not) your leaping to conclusions and laying down the law in your first response seems pretty uncalled for.
 

Wiebke

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My initial post says "So, I got my boys one day apart".
Got to say I think that this altered reply is quite harsh and judgemental to a first time piggie owner- it's good that you feel strongly about this, but if it were the case that I bought a female and male (and hadn't mentioned if they were spayed or not) your leaping to conclusions and laying down the law in your first response seems pretty uncalled for.
Sorry if you find you find my response pretty harsh and judgmental, but you will be amazed just how many people seem to think that intentional breeding doesn't apply to them and that they can get happily away with flouting the rules anyway. We have recently had another wave of several of them who haven't bothered to look at what they were joining.
With every fifth birth going wrong with the best of care and our forum being a haven for all those that are dealing with mis-sexed piggies, already pregnant shop or privately rehomed rescue piggies - which is happening far too often - dealing with the practical and emotional fall-out is on a pretty much daily basis is rather a rather taxing aspect. You can see for yourself just how much death we are dealing with in our pregnancy section; breeder forums are even worse. :(

Anyway, please deal with Louis first in every respect, but keep in mind that She-Ra is the one who won't allow any intrusion into his private space. Unfortunately the two are not well matched personality wise and will never get on. Key to any successful boar bond (or any happy piggy bond at that) is mutual liking and character compatibility - and that is sadly very much not the case with your boys. It is unfortunately a persistent breeder myth that related or similar aged boars won't fall out. We have sadly seen plenty of evidence to the contrary - and it is sadly both pet shops and most breeders that fall desperately short when it comes to matching up personalities.

Guinea pigs are social animals, but that doesn't mean that they'll get on with anybody. They are very much like two people stuck in a forced marriage - while the majority will come to an arrangement and some will find love, personality clashes are not at all rare, either. Boars have unfortunately the added difficulty of suffering from huge testosterone spikes during their teenage months (which last typically for 10 months), when any weaknesses in a relationship are all too clearly exposed. :

You might want to consider whether to have your two boys neutered and living with a sow each after a 6 weeks wait would be a way forward for you. Cross gender bonds where one of the pair is de-sexed are the most stable of pairings once initial acceptance by the sow has happened.
Both my Hywel (who bullied any boar he was paired up with prior to being neutered by his rescue) and my Maelog, who was a deadly defence biter if his space was invaded by another boar, including permanently damaging his brother's incisors (turned out he was deeply afraid of other boars and tended to overreact in self-defence rather like your She-Ra), have both had very happy and long boar lives with a harem each.
Otherwise I would recommend to consider boar dating Louis at one of our recommended rescues that offer this service. His jealousy will stop the moment he has a new companion. ;)
Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths And Facts
Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues
 

WorldsBestBoars

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Sorry if you find you find my response pretty harsh and judgmental, but you will be amazed just how many people seem to think that intentional breeding doesn't apply to them and that they can get happily away with flouting the rules anyway. We have recently had another wave of several of them who haven't bothered to look at what they were joining.
With every fifth birth going wrong with the best of care and our forum being a haven for all those that are dealing with mis-sexed piggies, already pregnant shop or privately rehomed rescue piggies - which is happening far too often - dealing with the practical and emotional fall-out is on a pretty much daily basis is rather a rather taxing aspect. You can see for yourself just how much death we are dealing with in our pregnancy section; breeder forums are even worse. :(

Anyway, please deal with Louis first in every respect, but keep in mind that She-Ra is the one who won't allow any intrusion into his private space. Unfortunately the two are not well matched personality wise and will never get on. Key to any successful boar bond (or any happy piggy bond at that) is mutual liking and character compatibility - and that is sadly very much not the case with your boys. It is unfortunately a persistent breeder myth that related or similar aged boars won't fall out. We have sadly seen plenty of evidence to the contrary - and it is sadly both pet shops and most breeders that fall desperately short when it comes to matching up personalities.

Guinea pigs are social animals, but that doesn't mean that they'll get on with anybody. They are very much like two people stuck in a forced marriage - while the majority will come to an arrangement and some will find love, personality clashes are not at all rare, either. Boars have unfortunately the added difficulty of suffering from huge testosterone spikes during their teenage months (which last typically for 10 months), when any weaknesses in a relationship are all too clearly exposed. :

You might want to consider whether to have your two boys neutered and living with a sow each after a 6 weeks wait would be a way forward for you. Cross gender bonds where one of the pair is de-sexed are the most stable of pairings once initial acceptance by the sow has happened.
Both my Hywel (who bullied any boar he was paired up with prior to being neutered by his rescue) and my Maelog, who was a deadly defence biter if his space was invaded by another boar, including permanently damaging his brother's incisors (turned out he was deeply afraid of other boars and tended to overreact in self-defence rather like your She-Ra), have both had very happy and long boar lives with a harem each.
Otherwise I would recommend to consider boar dating Louis at one of our recommended rescues that offer this service. His jealousy will stop the moment he has a new companion. ;)
Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths And Facts
Recommended Guinea Pig Rescues
I completely understand where your coming from, just bare in mind to really read and get a full picture from someone before making assumptions, as even though this wasn't the situation in this case, I felt like I couldn't post here after that!

With regards to my situation- it's so sad to hear this, I really hoped that this was just the hormone spike and a recoverable pairing as they have got on until now. I chose the pigs- as neither had bonded with any in their litter, and both seemed to hide a little more from the others, though Louis was more outgoing, I thought they might get on.

So if I neutered them (shudder) I could get one sow, or a sow each? Or find a (boar) mate for Louis only? Won't She-Ra feel like an outcast? :(
 

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I completely understand where your coming from, just bare in mind to really read and get a full picture from someone before making assumptions, as even though this wasn't the situation in this case, I felt like I couldn't post here after that!

With regards to my situation- it's so sad to hear this, I really hoped that this was just the hormone spike and a recoverable pairing as they have got on until now. I chose the pigs- as neither had bonded with any in their litter, and both seemed to hide a little more from the others, though Louis was more outgoing, I thought they might get on.

So if I neutered them (shudder) I could get one sow, or a sow each? Or find a (boar) mate for Louis only? Won't She-Ra feel like an outcast? :(
You'd have to get a sow for each and have them living as two separate couples; it is all explained in both the teenage guide and the boar dating guide. I somewhat doubt that She-Ra is ready right now for another boarmate date when he is going at Louis at full tilt straight away. He may at some point in the future, but we are rather talking months or years instead of weeks and it may take more than one attempt at dating.

You have meant well, but it seems you have chosen two outsiders - and they have not clicked. Louis is too full on and She-Ra is not a team player. You'd have had more of a chance with picking two boys hanging out together a lot.

It is always gutting when your dreams don't come off. I've got a cupboard full of ripped t-shirts and have learned the hard way not to force a relationship where there is no shared ground. Once piggies have made up their mind they don't like somebody, you've had it. :(
 

WorldsBestBoars

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Waaaaaa! :'( Well, I might have mis-gendered She-Ra with his name, but you can see I got the essence of his character right. :( Thanks.
 

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The biting seems rather violent/aggressive, and not signs of a healthy boar relationship :( you can try following the re-introducing, re-bonding guide in the forum, though it sounds like their personalities are just not compatible with each other. It sounds like neither of them want to submit to the other, which is essential for a healthy boar relationship.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

You could opt to visit a local rescue and see if you can boar date if you do not wish to neuter the piggies right away :)
 

WorldsBestBoars

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I don't think She-Ra cares about being dominant , he just wants Louis to quit bothering him, As @Wiebke mentioned, "Maelog, who was a deadly defence biter if his space was invaded by another boar, including permanently damaging his brother's incisors (turned out he was deeply afraid of other boars and tended to overreact in self-defence rather like your She-Ra)".
Since I've had them separate they have both been depressed. Letting them have floor time, petting time, or time out on the grass one by one is enormously time consuming, and they are not nearly as happy, they don't run around as much.

I put them out in side by side cages on the grass a couple of days ago and after an initial rumble-off, they began popcorning around the place, they were so happy to be near each other!

I don't know what to do about this, I can't get more guinea pigs, even if I had the space, I would not be able to devote the amount of quality time that I do with my babies right now to any more piggies. I don't want to neuter my boys either, I want them to live natural, long, happy, surgery-free lives.
I don't know if time will make a difference- going against the advice I have been given here- I have been spending more time with She-Ra just trying to build his trust, he is fairly bitey, but now I recognise that as a form of anxiety in him, and lately he has been super sensitive to being picked up at all, so I wonder how much difference some time and gentle healing will make.
 

Wiebke

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I don't think She-Ra cares about being dominant , he just wants Louis to quit bothering him, As @Wiebke mentioned, "Maelog, who was a deadly defence biter if his space was invaded by another boar, including permanently damaging his brother's incisors (turned out he was deeply afraid of other boars and tended to overreact in self-defence rather like your She-Ra)".
Since I've had them separate they have both been depressed. Letting them have floor time, petting time, or time out on the grass one by one is enormously time consuming, and they are not nearly as happy, they don't run around as much.

I put them out in side by side cages on the grass a couple of days ago and after an initial rumble-off, they began popcorning around the place, they were so happy to be near each other!

I don't know what to do about this, I can't get more guinea pigs, even if I had the space, I would not be able to devote the amount of quality time that I do with my babies right now to any more piggies. I don't want to neuter my boys either, I want them to live natural, long, happy, surgery-free lives.
I don't know if time will make a difference- going against the advice I have been given here- I have been spending more time with She-Ra just trying to build his trust, he is fairly bitey, but now I recognise that as a form of anxiety in him, and lately he has been super sensitive to being picked up at all, so I wonder how much difference some time and gentle healing will make.
If you can, please keep them next to each other with round the clock interaction through the bars. We have a number of members who have 'can't live together but can't live apart' boar pairs who have each their own territory but are still bonded through the bars and continue to give each other the stimulation and company they still need.

As to interacting with She-Ra, please take the time to read these two guides. Avoid triggering his prey animal/defence instincts and use piggy body language and mimicking socially interactive behaviours to communicate with him.
Once you can bring across that you want to be his friend, want him to part of the group you are leading and that you love him, the biting should get less quickly. Also try to not pick him up with your hands; that is cutting very close to his prey instincts.
Make sure that you keep an eye on him possibly getting mange mites; the very first sign is often that they don't want to be touched. Stress can lower the immune system and allow any mites eggs in the skin to make an appearance.

Patience will get you there. ;)

How To Pick Up And Weigh Your Guinea Pig
Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering And Cuddling Tips
 

WorldsBestBoars

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Thanks, I really was doing most of this already- I haven't tried mimicking washing yet, and I don't think I'll be licking She-Ra's ear any time soon! But I was instinctually aware of most of these things already, having kept prey animals before. There's no mites in sight here, I check them daily.

She-Ra's sensitivity is a changing goal post- and there's been a bit of trauma so it's just going to take time, I realise that. Can't-live-together-can't-live-without-each-other-boars is a whole new world to me though, but no matter what they're still the world's best to me :luv:
 

WorldsBestBoars

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So...it seems that this fallout was mainly caused by being in a different location.
We had been staying away from the home (my home) for a few weeks and the first couple were fine.
But despite having their same cages, used bedding, their same toys, feed bowls, loads of space, regular floor time, outdoor time, cuddles, quiet time and everything else- they obviously had some issue with being away.

Day 1 of being back, I've re-introduced them; during their face offs, Louis backs down and She-Ra then leaves him alone. They are popcorning, rumbling, feeding and running around as they used to, so it seems they are friends again, although now I guess, there's a new sheriff in town?!
 

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